Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Jeff Head · Jun 16, 2012

Franklin said:
Another factor to consider is the fact that the MiG-29K has a higher landing speed than the SU-33/J-15. (240km/h vs. 250km/h) This is one of the reasons why the Russians went for the SU-33 instead of the MiG-29K.

Yes...but now the Russians are switching and going over the the Mig-29K for the Kusnetsov in the future themselves.

Franklin said:
...who are you going to fight?

Precisely. The entire idea is to be strong enough so that no one will want to fight you. Spending this money to achieve that level of deterrent is far less expensive than an all out war at that level between major nations would be.

BTW, the initiaitve itself answers where such monies could come from...fact is, if the waste currently occurring was addressed, then they would be along ways towards having it anyway.

asif iqbal · Jun 16, 2012

lets say Soviet Union never collapsed, how many carriers would USSR be fielding?

Vini_Vidi_Vici · Jun 16, 2012

asif iqbal said:
lets say Soviet Union never collapsed, how many carriers would USSR be fielding?

ulyanovsk was kittyhawk equivalent, even slightly bigger. it had steam catapults. the soviet carrier program was speeding up before ot collapsed. if the ussr existed until today, probably 4-5 more would have been built on top on ulyanovsk

bd popeye · Jun 16, 2012

Vini_Vidi_Vici said:
ulyanovsk was kittyhawk equivalent, even slightly bigger. it had steam catapults. the soviet carrier program was speeding up before ot collapsed. if the ussr existed until today, probably 4-5 more would have been built on top on ulyanovsk

If , if and what were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

It will be a long..long, long time before Russia will be able to do this...

[video=youtube;-Z7kn0xvUZ4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z7kn0xvUZ4&feature=related[/video]

[video=youtube;Y7PUYbuEYmA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7PUYbuEYmA[/video]

Jeff Head · Jun 16, 2012

asif iqbal said:
lets say Soviet Union never collapsed, how many carriers would USSR be fielding?

They would have 2 of the Kuznetsov Class, the Kuznetsov and the Varyag, and they would have 2 or 3 of the larger, CATOBAR Ulyanovsk Class. So, 4-5 altogether IMHO.

bd popeye said:
If , if and what were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

It will be a long..long, long time before Russia will be able to do this...

At this point, unless there is a very major change, I do not expect to see Russia do either of those things in my life time (I figure I have a max of 25 years left).

China may get there in that time, and may have 3 CATOBAR carriers doing it, (in addition to what I think will be 2 STOBAR carriers), but they will only have just arrived at that capability with their CATOBAR carriers, and by then the US will have 4-5 Ford Class carriers and the last 5 Nimitz class, with that many more years of experiences and probably a lot of neat new technologies available to the fleet.

Equation · Jun 16, 2012

Jeff Head said:
They would have 2 of the Kuznetsov Class, the Kuznetsov and the Varyag, and they would have 2 or 3 of the larger, CATOBAR Ulyanovsk Class. So, 4-5 altogether IMHO.

At this point, unless there is a very major change, I do not expect to see Russia do either of those things in my life time (I figure I have a max of 25 years left).

China may get there in that time, and may have 3 CATOBAR carriers doing it, (in addition to what I think will be 2 STOBAR carriers), but they will only have just arrived at that capability with their CATOBAR carriers, and by then the US will have 4-5 Ford Class carriers and the last 5 Nimitz class, with that many more years of experiences and probably a lot of neat new technologies available to the fleet.

Do you think Russia can build a CATOBAR carrier system in the next 5-10 years? I figure they could, if China could do it, so can they.

Jeff Head · Jun 17, 2012

Equation said:
Do you think Russia can build a CATOBAR carrier system in the next 5-10 years? I figure they could, if China could do it, so can they.

They are capable...but they have economic issues where that economy is so up and down they may not be able to sustain it...and I am not sure they can get approved publically/politically.

If they funded it and stuck to it, they could put out a CATOBAR carrier in 6-8 years when you consider all of the development and then the staging, etc. Then add 4 years of construction and two years of outfitting and training.

Once they are initially trained (8 years from when they make the decision) then they are another 8-10 years away from true proficiency with night time operations like Popyeye showed. So, for me to see that level of proficiency, they would have to make the decision within the next 5-6 years and then go for it and stick to it.

I believe, short of a world-wide economic melt down, that China very probably will do so. They are already in the middle of going that way. If their first CATOBAR carrier is already developed and either already under construction or about to be...then fifteen years from now they will be proficient in those types of operations.

Franklin · Jun 17, 2012

If , if and what were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

It will be a long..long, long time before Russia will be able to do this...

The question is how long will it be before China can do this ?

I believe if Russia and China can pull together their resources they can build a Nimitz class like carrier with in years. The Russians already got a design the 80,000 ton Ulyanovsk class. If you just take away the ski ramp at the front and just place two steam cats it will be a four steam cats carrier like the Nimitz class. The Russians still has the upper hand to China when it comes to nuclear reactor, engines and some sub system design and production and their expertise are highly needed. China on it's parts has the upper hand when it comes to ship building and digitization. China can build these carriers faster, cheaper and probably better. And if both countries where to use these carriers they can build them cheaper because of economy of scale. So then China and Russia will both have 80,000 ton nuclear carriers with 4 steam cats, a highly digitized command and control and combat system. It's enough to give the good ole U.S. of A a heart attack.
But political reality means this is just a wet dream.

asif iqbal · Jun 17, 2012

personally i just cant see Russia ever making a supercarrier, if the Soviet Union never did it certainly Russia wont be able too

anyhow, just had a quick thought, if Soviet Union even kept the carriers it had already built then this is what they could have had

if the 4 x Kiev Class were better managed and all converted to STOBAR carriers then we would have

4 x Kiev Class each capable to carry 24 x Mig29K total fleet of 96 aircraft
2 x Admiral Kuznetsov class could carry say 30 x Su-33 each for total of 60 aircraft
1 x Ulyanovsk Carrier capable to carry 48 aircraft

so that would give 7 carriers able to carry in excess of more than 200 fighter aircraft

lets say 3 out of the 4 Kiev Class are ready at any one time, and 1 out of the 2 Admiral Kuznetsov class are ready at one time, and Ulyanovsk Carrier remains on hand at short notice would allow Russia to deploy minimum of atleast 5 carriers out of 7 for battle readiness, still accounting to more than 150 fighter aircraft

that would be a formidable naval force, and one that would have been possible if funds were there and more organisation on part of Russia and little bit of foresight and better managment

there is only one country which has the resources and the manpower to make a naval force like this, that is China, and it will be a matter of time before China starts to get into full speed with their aircraft carrier production

if China does with its navy what it is doing with its space programme, that is incremental advances which results in very few errors and a high sucess rate then before 2020 we will see big change in naval tatics

Jeff Head · Jun 17, 2012

asif iqbal said:
personally i just cant see Russia ever making a supercarrier, if the Soviet Union never did it certainly Russia wont be able too

anyhow, just had a quick thought, if Soviet Union even kept the carriers it had already built then this is what they could have had

if the 4 x Kiev Class were better managed and all converted to STOBAR carriers then we would have

4 x Kiev Class each capable to carry 24 x Mig29K total fleet of 96 aircraft
2 x Admiral Kuznetsov class could carry say 30 x Su-33 each for total of 60 aircraft
1 x Ulyanovsk Carrier capable to carry 48 aircraft

so that would give 7 carriers able to carry in excess of more than 200 fighter aircraft

lets say 3 out of the 4 Kiev Class are ready at any one time, and 1 out of the 2 Admiral Kuznetsov class are ready at one time, and Ulyanovsk Carrier remains on hand at short notice would allow Russia to deploy minimum of atleast 5 carriers out of 7 for battle readiness, still accounting to more than 150 fighter aircraft

that would be a formidable naval force, and one that would have been possible if funds were there and more organisation on part of Russia and little bit of foresight and better managment

there is only one country which has the resources and the manpower to make a naval force like this, that is China, and it will be a matter of time before China starts to get into full speed with their aircraft carrier production

if China does with its navy what it is doing with its space programme, that is incremental advances which results in very few errors and a high sucess rate then before 2020 we will see big change in naval tatics

I do not think the Russians would have ever converted the Kievs. If they had kept going and had the resourse, they would have put that effort into 1-2 more of the larger STOBAR carrier in my opinion, which would lead to two STOBAR and 2-3 CATOBAR carriers in your scenario.

Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Jeff Head

General

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General

Vini_Vidi_Vici

Junior Member

bd popeye

The Last Jedi

Jeff Head

General

Equation

Lieutenant General

Jeff Head

General

Franklin

Captain

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General

Jeff Head

General