Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Russians don't intend to threaten your island. If you spend less on the military now, you can spend more when you really need it.
It's also highly likely that if you do not retain the expertise and manufacturing, and the capability now, that when you really need it, you will not be able to produce it in time.

Generally, nation's forecast the need and pay the price upfront so it is there when they do need it...and generally, such actions help forestall and deter the need in any case and so become money well spent.

It's a sword that cuts both ways.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Dear Jeff,

I agree, but I keep Ike's military industrial complex warning in mind and our current minister of defense de Maizière's speech on the problem of inadequate military equipment delivery at inflated prices (has to do with the limited free market in security issues). In my opinion, we live in a world of compromises and sometimes we can't have and do everything. Considering your UK problem, why doesn't your coast guard buy two flying boats to take a look wherever and whenever required?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Considering your UK problem, why doesn't your coast guard buy two flying boats to take a look wherever and whenever required?

Jeff lives in the USA..in Idaho I believe.

As for the UK buying flying boats or patrol aircraft..good question. Considering the UKs military budget constraints I'd wager that is the problem.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Dear Jeff,

I agree, but I keep Ike's military industrial complex warning in mind and our current minister of defense de Maizière's speech on the problem of inadequate military equipment delivery at inflated prices (has to do with the limited free market in security issues). In my opinion, we live in a world of compromises and sometimes we can't have and do everything. Considering your UK problem, why doesn't your coast guard buy two flying boats to take a look wherever and whenever required?
Well, I be American...but have many close friends in the UK, and way back in the 1600s my forfathers came from the UK to these shores.

Anyhow, you are right to keep those sayings and quotes in mind. We have to be constantly vigilant at all levels of government for waste and those taking advantage...but we also have to be ever vigilant in being well defended.

Trade-offs that we the citizens must make sure those we elect understand and remain equally vigilant for...and therein is the real issue.

As to the UK having more patrol aircraft, the decision to cancel the new Nimrods, with 3 test aircraft and 2 production aircraft already built, placed severe limitations on the UKs future long range maritime patrol capabilities. IMHO, they should at least make use of as many of those five as possible uintil coming up with a different plan. (ie outfitting C-130s, procurring either a new development or something like the US's P-8 Poisidon, etc.). I hope they get something soon.

But, if those aircraft found something really threatening out there at sea...they would need something to back them up...meaining surface vessels forming one type of a task force or another, from a SAG to a CSG.
 

Scratch

Captain
Going back to the u-boat carrier idea a page back, I was for some time wondering how difficult / usefull it could be to launch full fleged UCAVs from a modified submarine.
Take a Ohio or Vanguard and replace the Tridents with a booster launched UCAV carrying it's own weapons (red box) to strike a target, then come back and recover via a parachute (above the engine[yellow] & fuel[blue] compartment), seal the intake & nozzle with an inflatable airbag and be brought back via a crane from the sub in the most aft missile tubes.
Strike potential would be limited, but also quite covert.

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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
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Well, I be American...but have many close friends in the UK, and way back in the 1600s my forfathers came from the UK to these shores.

Anyhow, you are right to keep those sayings and quotes in mind. We have to be constantly vigilant at all levels of government for waste and those taking advantage...but we also have to be ever vigilant in being well defended.

Trade-offs that we the citizens must make sure those we elect understand and remain equally vigilant for...and therein is the real issue.

As to the UK having more patrol aircraft, the decision to cancel the new Nimrods, with 3 test aircraft and 2 production aircraft already built, placed severe limitations on the UKs future long range maritime patrol capabilities. IMHO, they should at least make use of as many of those five as possible uintil coming up with a different plan. (ie outfitting C-130s, procurring either a new development or something like the US's P-8 Poisidon, etc.). I hope they get something soon.

But, if those aircraft found something really threatening out there at sea...they would need something to back them up...meaining surface vessels forming one type of a task force or another, from a SAG to a CSG.
As regards the Nimrod MRA4s, shortly after cancelling the project the Government ordered the the existing airframes wether complete or under construction to be stripped down and cut up for scrap. This was done within weeks, behind shrouds erected near the hangars to keep photographers from capturing the moment. They didn't count on the act being photographed from helicopters though. A few Nimrod MR2 airframes have been kept for museums but are no longer airworthy.
 

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Kurt

Junior Member
Going back to the u-boat carrier idea a page back, I was for some time wondering how difficult / usefull it could be to launch full fleged UCAVs from a modified submarine.
Take a Ohio or Vanguard and replace the Tridents with a booster launched UCAV carrying it's own weapons (red box) to strike a target, then come back and recover via a parachute (above the engine[yellow] & fuel[blue] compartment), seal the intake & nozzle with an inflatable airbag and be brought back via a crane from the sub in the most aft missile tubes.
Strike potential would be limited, but also quite covert.

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Sorry for the long answer, but I tried to give the impression of a profound analyses. Happy reading, I'm looking forward to your answer.

Let's analyze that. We all agree that hullspace is limited and expensive on a submarine and cheaper on a submersible. Guided and ballistic missile submarines would be examples quite close to submarine carriers.
Their tubes for missile storage could be seperate pressure hulls, even external to the whole submarine, but with increased drag and noise. And we Germans have one of the best crazy ideas departements to look up if someone tried to realize it. Well, Allies were afraid so during Operation Teardrop.
If you have the containers as part of the hull, they need full pressure hull capability or a water resistant design that can do outside the pressure hull without damage at any depth and speed the submarine chooses. This makes the whole thing one expensive design with unreliable availability except if you have multiple such platforms with the corresponding costs.
What if you construct something simple to transport the aircrafts under water because if you permanently integrate them into the submarine things get really expensive. See, transporting UAV or some manned aircrafts under water doesn't mean that this payload is as load as the crew of the naval vessel and so requires less precaution against sound emission (quite expensive). Having just a suitable container means also reduced cost for readiness because all big enough submarines can tow it if one has engine problems and even surface vessels can help. This is an idea reminescent of the "torpedoes" used in drug smuggling, quite a cheap asset and it doesn't need the same dive depth capability as the submarine (that saves lots of money).
So my suggested container with aircrafts on board needs to launch them. Here comes problem number one: The wings take up lots of space (that's why I wanted the cheapest subsurface space possible) and the hot fumes of one craft can damage the next or you launch it subsurface (DARPA currently tests a suitable submersible aircraft) or you wait forever (in modern battletime concepts) until the heat is bearable. Furthermore all thrust engines work at their worst the slower the vehicles they drive currently move, starting is ergo the worst scenario for these. How do you solve these problems? Or do you just plan to create a cruise missile that can be tracked back to the firing platform in order to destroy it?

So I'd ask myself what for is such a submarine carrier good for that can't be done better with another platform? It's a stealth carrier for bombing attacks on unsuspecting targets. So let's find some targets.
What about merchant shipping? You could tow such a subsurface aerial asset behind many different ships without giving your armament away to enemy surveillance and range and stealth would allow you to operate this asset with much reduced risk of someone putting 1 and 1 together that you are a cruiser disguised as a merchant. Things get even better if you integrate armour and space for a boarding crew, so you can switch ships and even use the enemy's confirmed own ships for your own ends. So I see lots of potential for an aerial subsurface transported asset in this context.
Other targets with a real submarine transporting your aerial assets would be the things super-stealth bombers were used to take out. Well, I don't believe that the submarine solution is cheaper than aerial refuelling en route.
Next idea, the arsenal ship under water. Redundant with guided missile submarines, requires stealth also during return flight because the spotted submarine platform has a bad self-defense (it was tried to no avail to improve that with the Milchkuh design) or it carries many more additional anti-air, anti-missile missiles and close in weapon systems for self defense. Does this leave any payload or expenditure benefit from the returning aircraft for improved platform performance?
We had this boarding party from the Q-ship, what if you airlift your special forces from a commando submarine? This asset could greatly help retrieve pilots in enemy territory by a quick reaction force. Move down to the autogyro, I think that would be a design that can be quickly attached to all subamrines without great costs.

On a different trajectory than creating a submarine carrier are German developments to integrate an autogyro(WWII) and gliders(current) for observation. Theoretically the autogyro is similar to the currently employed naval camcopter with the add on that camcopter has a pointy object that can fly fast, called a missile (more of an arrow, but well). So a submarine might carry some surface capability close to a frigate with ease by using either the small camcopter or a larger piloted skeleton autogyro with removeable pressure sensitive parts for storage in the pressure hull (I think of a kind of killer egg).
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Sorry for the long answer, but I tried to give the impression of a profound analyses. Happy reading, I'm looking forward to your answer.

Let's analyze that. We all agree that hullspace is limited and expensive on a submarine and cheaper on a submersible. Guided and ballistic missile submarines would be examples quite close to submarine carriers.
Their tubes for missile storage could be seperate pressure hulls, even external to the whole submarine, but with increased drag and noise. And we Germans have one of the best crazy ideas departements to look up if someone tried to realize it. Well, Allies were afraid so during Operation Teardrop.
If you have the containers as part of the hull, they need full pressure hull capability or a water resistant design that can do outside the pressure hull without damage at any depth and speed the submarine chooses. This makes the whole thing one expensive design with unreliable availability except if you have multiple such platforms with the corresponding costs.
What if you construct something simple to transport the aircrafts under water because if you permanently integrate them into the submarine things get really expensive. See, transporting UAV or some manned aircrafts under water doesn't mean that this payload is as load as the crew of the naval vessel and so requires less precaution against sound emission (quite expensive). Having just a suitable container means also reduced cost for readiness because all big enough submarines can tow it if one has engine problems and even surface vessels can help. This is an idea reminescent of the "torpedoes" used in drug smuggling, quite a cheap asset and it doesn't need the same dive depth capability as the submarine (that saves lots of money).
So my suggested container with aircrafts on board needs to launch them. Here comes problem number one: The wings take up lots of space (that's why I wanted the cheapest subsurface space possible) and the hot fumes of one craft can damage the next or you launch it subsurface (DARPA currently tests a suitable submersible aircraft) or you wait forever (in modern battletime concepts) until the heat is bearable. Furthermore all thrust engines work at their worst the slower the vehicles they drive currently move, starting is ergo the worst scenario for these. How do you solve these problems? Or do you just plan to create a cruise missile that can be tracked back to the firing platform in order to destroy it?

So I'd ask myself what for is such a submarine carrier good for that can't be done better with another platform? It's a stealth carrier for bombing attacks on unsuspecting targets. So let's find some targets.
What about merchant shipping? You could tow such a subsurface aerial asset behind many different ships without giving your armament away to enemy surveillance and range and stealth would allow you to operate this asset with much reduced risk of someone putting 1 and 1 together that you are a cruiser disguised as a merchant. Things get even better if you integrate armour and space for a boarding crew, so you can switch ships and even use the enemy's confirmed own ships for your own ends. So I see lots of potential for an aerial subsurface transported asset in this context.
Other targets with a real submarine transporting your aerial assets would be the things super-stealth bombers were used to take out. Well, I don't believe that the submarine solution is cheaper than aerial refuelling en route.
Next idea, the arsenal ship under water. Redundant with guided missile submarines, requires stealth also during return flight because the spotted submarine platform has a bad self-defense (it was tried to no avail to improve that with the Milchkuh design) or it carries many more additional anti-air, anti-missile missiles and close in weapon systems for self defense. Does this leave any payload or expenditure benefit from the returning aircraft for improved platform performance?
We had this boarding party from the Q-ship, what if you airlift your special forces from a commando submarine? This asset could greatly help retrieve pilots in enemy territory by a quick reaction force. Move down to the autogyro, I think that would be a design that can be quickly attached to all subamrines without great costs.

On a different trajectory than creating a submarine carrier are German developments to integrate an autogyro(WWII) and gliders(current) for observation. Theoretically the autogyro is similar to the currently employed naval camcopter with the add on that camcopter has a pointy object that can fly fast, called a missile (more of an arrow, but well). So a submarine might carry some surface capability close to a frigate with ease by using either the small camcopter or a larger piloted skeleton autogyro with removeable pressure sensitive parts for storage in the pressure hull (I think of a kind of killer egg).

I like your idea about a transportable underwater vehicle for UAV and/or aircraft, but what about the security of the vessel? An elite UDT or SEAL team can high jack that vessel and find out about the vessel computer, communication, guidance, weapons, and codes, thus compromising the security of the fleet.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Dear Equation,

some parts are best kept on board in the pressure hull of a normal manned submarine (if the SEALs get on board, well you need to press the big red self-destruction button and make good your escape). I consider the best approach a simple tech "helicopter" (autogyro) that can get wet because it's a skeleton without engine and avionics and thus just needs a cover next to the submarine sail (enemy divers will most certainly inspect that place whenever they have a chance, but you can't see anything important there, just the skeleton stripped of all interesting parts). These can be taken out and stored as compareably little space consuming parts in the pressure hull. The trick will be to reassemble the craft for flight, but a crew can train that so often they can do it in a drunken state in the end. The best use of such a craft can be to rescue own people, especially pilots and to land special forces/boarding parties wherever you want them with some armament to attack other vessels.
The other use of this simple skeleton helicopter would be for Q-ships that can carry one or more helicopter skeletons with fuel tanks and weapons in tanks underwater and surface them for use whenever required, while avionics and engines must be hidden on the insuspicious merchantship used (that can be quickly exchanged for another vessel). The engine and computers of such a craft can be rather old school because they don't normally fight state of the art military hardware.
The last idea is actually practiced by the German and other navies, they use gliders to look around while staying low and silent with their conventional submarines (not capable of fast cruising for long on AIP). The development of extended surveillance is coupled with missiles for long range and anti-air strikes as an alternative for torpedoes. So it's moving towards a guided missile conventional submarine.
The Austrian camcopter is currently used on German corvettes, very small frigates (according to German designation) and what the US littoral combat ship was originally meant to be. This is rather a flying camera with small missiles that can harm an open boat and her crew or an observer on land. the task of these ships is to take over fast attack craft roles with more capable platforms that can operate in higher sea states and further away from home. The camcopter (an autogyro drone) is so small, that you could lift it partly disassembled through the hatch of a submarine and it weighs as much as one heavy sailor, but it can rather watch than harm anyone and the glider mentioned above is better at keeping an overview.
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That's perhaps a misunderstanding, but I'm not a fan of returning UAV and other flying assets on a submarine. They are likely to be tracked (except gliders with extreme stealth at low cost and very long endurance) and then you're screwed because a sub has limited defense other than stealth. The more often they return, the more dangerous is your situation. So I'm fine with cruise missiles, but I would opt for some kind of launch system, a vertical catapult, instead of misusing thrust jet and rocket engines for take off with corresponding lowest efficiency and most visible IR signature.
I'm also a fan of not creating a submarine carrier, but a carrier module filled with flying objects that can be towed by surface and subsurface vessels as required, but has only submersible dive depth ability or is already flooded and contains parts not affected by changing water pressure and salinity.

All in all, perhaps an underwater commando "carrier" with several rotary wing crafts, but don't risk a visible submarine for any surfaced underwater airfield.
 
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