Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Regarding the news on india´s carrier program (see post 1058), do you think that USA will agree to sell catapults to india? (i cant see them developing it themselves)

I can see them developing steam catapults themselves, after all they used to operate a steam catapult aboard the old Vikrant. It's a technology that holds no secrets from them. Steam Catapults are very low tech, simple engineering that is easy to scale up or down as required. Indian heavy industry has all the plant and machinery needed to manufacture cats, I know, because in the 90s I helped ship a lot of it out there! It's where a lot of the heavy manufacturing plant we used to have went to when our industry was shut down. McTaggert Scott, the Scottish engineering company that manufactured the original British Steam Catapults which were exported around the world is still a thriving concern (they make lifts for carriers amongst other carrier specific items) and retain the ability to manufacture steam catapults (they have been providing replacement parts for them for years. BNS Sao Paolo? Two BS5s recently overhauled) if required.

It's not a question of if they can be provided, it's the paralysing nature of Indian politics and procurement. If they issued a requirement now, they could have cats ready for the new Vikrant when she commissions, but they won't be ordered for another ten years! Bad Management is both the British Disease and it seems the Indian disease too.:(
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Regarding the news on india´s carrier program (see post 1058), do you think that USA will agree to sell catapults to india? (i cant see them developing it themselves)

I agree with Obi Wan. Also Orthan did you know that when the USN decommissions a CV the cats are removed so they can be used as spare parts or even replacements for those CVN still in service??

Oh by the way India shall receive E2-D Hawkeye AEW aircraft so catapults will be a must.

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Summary

The US government cleared yet another high technology system for sale to India, the E-2D aircraft for Airborne Early Warning (AEW) and battle management.

The US Navy has programmed for 75 E-2D aircraft, which is an all-weather, twin-engine, carrier-based aircraft designed to extend early warning surveillance capabilities. Acquisition cost per aircraft is estimated to be $235 million. Logistics analysts predict another $50 billion in MRO Sustainment costs spread over a 30-year life span.

Analysis

The US government cleared yet another high technology system for India, the shipboard capable Hawkeye E-2D aircraft for Airborne Early Warning (AEW) and battle management. The clearance has been described by diplomatic sources as a fall-out of the ''successful'' visit of secretary of state Hillary Clinton, and the signing of the End User Monitoring Agreement (EUMA) of military equipment being supplied or sold by the US to India.

India is the second country, after the UAE, to be cleared by the US state and defence departments for sale of this sophisticated system. The US navy has sanctioned $432 million for trials of the aircraft, currently underway at the naval air station Patuxent River in Maryland. The naval systems command based there provides engineering and testing support for new naval systems and weapons.

The Hawkeye E-2D has been under the US government's consideration for India for some time. In fact, in 2007, Pentagon sources in Washington indicated the aircraft was being cleared, but apparently the previous version, Hawkeye E-2C, was eventually offered to which the Indian navy said ''no'' in informal discussions.

Indian navy officers had witnessed the capabilities of the Hawkeye E-2C but told the US officials that as the equipment India buys would be used for years, it must be the best and the latest with future capability insertion potential. Future aircraft carriers of the Indian navy would also have to be equipped with catapult launching systems.
 

Scratch

Captain
More news on joint France-UK carrier plans.

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French fighter jets could land on British carriers
French fighter jets could be stationed on Britain's new aircraft carrier as the two nations' navies become "interdependent," the French defence minister has said.

By James Kirkup, In Brussels - Published: 7:00AM BST 29 Oct 2010

Herve Morin told a European defence industry conference in Paris that French Rafale jets could fly from Britain’s new Queen Elizabeth-class carriers. [...]
Under plans set out in the defence review, the new first British carrier will enter service in 2016. But scrapping the Harriers means there will be no British combat jets able to fly from its deck until 2020, when new Joint Strike Fighters are due to be delivered.
Trying to bridge that “capability gap”, ministers have said the new carriers will be redesigned to have catapults to launch aircraft. That will allow them to carry planes like the French Rafale. ...

The french side is also looking into making the CdG available for british JSF, once they enter service.

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Cameron to discuss carrier sharing deal

Thursday, October 28, 2010

Prime Minister David Cameron and French president Nicolas Sarkozy are to discuss the detail of plans to share military equipment, including aircraft carriers, between France and the UK at a November summit in London. [...]
President Sarkozy is set to announce that the French navy will look to reconfigure the Charles de Gaulle so it is able to launch the UK's Joint Strike Fighters when they come into service. ...

The CdG itself set sail for a deployment on 14 Oct., however, she had to return to port a day later with a faulty valve in the propulsion system.
The issue has now been fixed and the french carrier left the port of Toulon yesterday, accompanied by two FFGs, one SSN and a tanker.
The carrier itself has aboard 12 modernized Super Etendard, 10 Rafale F3, 2 E-2, and several helicopters. The group will transit the Med, the persian Gulf and the indian Ocean to take part in exercises and in operation Atalanta off the Somali cost. Eventually CdG will support opertations in A-stan with her aircraft. I think it's supposed to be a 4 month deployment. (pics in the link)

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Thai Navy's CV heads south for humanitarian mission.

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Royal Thai Navy's aircraft carrier leaving for flood-hit South
( Source: Xinhua ) 2010-November-3 06:40

  BANGKOK, Nov. 2 (Xinhua) -- Royal Thai Navy's aircraft carrier Chakri Naruebet and another vessel are heading down South to Songkhla province for a flood relief mission, a local website reported.

  The two vessels are scheduled to leave Sattahip naval base in Chon Buri at 4pm on Tuesday and expected to arrive in Songkhla between midnight and 2 a.m. on Wednesday.

  Chakri Naruebet is Thailand's first and only aircraft carrier which was commissioned to Royal Thai Navy in 1997. The carrier is equipped with aircrafts and helicopters, and was intended for patrols and force projection in Thai waters, disaster relief, and amphibious warfare support.

  Meanwhile, Disaster Prevention and Mitigation Department issued a report on flooding situation in flood-stricken southern provinces on Tuesday that seven provinces with 35 districts were submerged by flood waters. Altogether 6,831 households with 20,423 locals are estimated to have been affected by flash floods.

  Southern region has been hit by depression since last Friday resulting in consecutive days of heavy rains which caused flash floods across the region.

  Thailand has faced nationwide flooding since Oct. 10 after monsoons caused downpour in northern, northeastern, eastern and central plains. From Oct. 10-Nov. 2, 38 provinces have been impacted by floods but recently waters have receded in 17 provinces and there are only 21 provinces, excluding southern provinces, still inundated.
 

tomcat21

New Member
Savaging of the UK military.

Has the house of commons gone mad? The UK will no longer have any carrier capability after 2014 until the Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales are commissioned. Much more has the politicians followed through with thier vengeance of the 1970's when the U.K. nearly lost all its ability to conduct operations that saved the Falklands? Has the U.K. defense ministry forgotten that you need a balanced military and enlarged force to maintain the ability to face down a global enemy like China or other potential countries like them?

Here is a rundown of some of the cuts:
All the Harriers will go immediately, and no VSTOL replacement will be forthcoming.

No Nimrod MR 4 planes will be bought. They should have bought the P-8 in the first place.

Ark Royal will decommission in 2011, Illustrious in 2014.

Queen Elizabeth will not be able to operate tactical fighter aircraft. Prince Of Wales will ONLY operate 12 JSF (Now only 60 will be bought.) and a few helicopters, not a full air wing as envisioned.

Passing of Naval air arm control to the French seems to be the mindset.

All C-130 J's will go by 2022? And replaced by the problematic A-400, a very expensive cost overrun and unproven aircraft like the Nimrod Program.

No replacements for the Commando HC4's.

Withdraw of the brand new Sentinal R-1? An excellent recon aircraft.

If their is any brits on this board I am curious. How does it make you feel the that Royal Naval air arm will completely cease to exist and nearly 50,000 people have to say good by to their jobs?

Its so astonishing that China, and India have the ability to purchase new technology and military equipment and the UK. can't. If the U.K. has to help fight a potential enemy like China or a resurgent Russia, its going to have the worst time of its life when it realizes its got no power projection or protection capability. When will the admirals and generals put their foot down?

I have never seen a savage cut to the UK forces in a long time. Its military is almost smaller than 3rd world countries that seem to have money to expand.
 

Scratch

Captain
EMALS seems to be moving ahead now. Maybe this year the first actual airplane, a Super Hornet, will be launched from a full scale EMALS system at a test facility.
I guess if that launch in succesfull, the system will be ready in time to be fitted to the fist Ford class CVN.

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EMALS Hopes for First Shot Before Christmas
By CHRISTOPHER P. CAVAS - Published: 8 Dec 2010 17:49

The first launch of an aircraft by the U.S. Navy's new electro-magnetic launch system could take place by mid-December, an event that would mark a major step ahead for a program with its full share of critics and doubters.
"The shot should take place within a couple of weeks," said Rob Koon, a spokesman for Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR). Asked if the engineers were trying to make the launch before Christmas, Koon replied, "that's what they're hoping for." [...]
The launch will take place at NAVAIR's facility at the Naval Air Engineering Station Lakehurst, N.J., where the service and prime contractor General Atomics have built a full-scale test site replicating a shipboard installation, including major software and hardware components.
The development team began shooting test "dead-loads" from the system in the spring, Koon said. Since then, 722 dead-load launches have been made at speeds of up to 180 knots, the highest end-speed requirement for the system. The launch tests are part of the program's system functional demonstration phase. ...
 

Scratch

Captain
News from the russian aircraft carrier building front. There will be none for at least another decade. Right now Russia sais they have enough money for planing, but not construction.
Obviously, Russia doesn't have the money. But, with the problems (almost failures) regarding the refit project for India, I'm quite sure that right now Russia doesn't have the skills to construct carriers either.
As I already stated in another thread, I guess that Russia wants to absorb the know-how in construction from a potential Mistral deal. They'll be busy for a decade building these ships I guess. If they can afford them after all. When that task is successfully completed, I guess they can start building CVs. But then again, these carriers won't be ready for another 20 years maybe. By that time Russia will also need new escorts for these ships. Another eleborate task to do at first.

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No New Russian Aircraft Carriers Until 2020
By DMITRY ZAKS, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE - Published: 10 Dec 2010 13:24

MOSCOW - The Russian military admitted Dec. 10 that it lacked the funds to deploy a powerful new armada of aircraft carriers as promised and that no more would be built for at least another decade.
"The state armaments program for 2011-2020 does not envision the construction of aircraft carriers," an unnamed senior official in Russia's defense ministry told the Interfax news agency. [...]
But naval concerns appeared to be put on the back burner as Russia entered a heated round of nuclear arms negotiations with the United States that hinged on a U.S. proposal to deploy a new missile defense shield in Europe.
Russia fears that the systems could either be turned into an offensive weapon or expanded to neutralize the country's existing arsenal of nuclear arms.
The military has therefore focused on new missile development and testing of its next-generation ICBM. ...
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Thanks for that information scratch.. I know some time ago Russia announced plans to build six CVs.. and I stated..

Not that long ago I read a report that the Russian were planning to build six carriers.

Russia to have 5-6 aircraft carriers in Northern, Pacific Fleets | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

Now they are saying they are planing a five year re-fit of the ADM"K"??? They can build a conventional CV in the same amount of time.

I'll believe either story when I see it!

And at mp.net I stated..
The Russians are just yanking everyones chain. They can barely operate the single carrier they have now. How will they ever operate 6??? No way. The Russians don't even conduct flight ops at night. What a joke..I just don't believe this story at all and I did not believe it the first time I saw it a few months ago.

and in this thread on 02.28.2010
Last year the Russians announced they are going to build 6 CVs. Have they even cut the steel for this project yet? Now they are announcing they will build a CVN. It will be interesting to see what shakes out. Don't look for a new RU CVN to be at sea for at least 10 years. Just my opinion.

Seems I was correct. No brag just fact.

With this article just posted you really have to wonder will they really build the Mistral class LHDs? Four of them no less?? You have to wonder..any guesses???
 

Scratch

Captain
With this article just posted you really have to wonder will they really build the Mistral class LHDs? Four of them no less?? You have to wonder..any guesses???

Well, I think initially Russia planned to do all of that. Now they realized they just don't have the resources to do it.
As I stated earlier, I'm pretty sure they wanted the Mistral deal not only to get modern amphibs, but also to get latest know how in military ship building. They still need that know-how if they want to build the carriers at some later point. And the first Mistral will still be built in France I'm sure. I guess that money they do have. After that they'll give it a try in their own shipyard. I think then we'll see if they built all four eventually, or if they stop earlier because they won't get it done.
 

Twix101

Junior Member
Well, Russia is still facing the fact that the chain of suppliers get literally destroyed after USSR Collapse, I really wonder how they can build very large ships with their actual ship building industry.

IMHO, they will need assistance from Ukraine if they want to build larger ships like aircraft carriers in an acceptable time frame, and it includes propelling technology.

And I also think that it is more plausible that PRC could and will do such a plan, they just need to get things right with naval propulsion (including nuclear).

As for Mistral, this deal is pointing out the lack of capability of Russian Ship Building Industry to bring up a similar design with up to date standards and reasonable time frame.
 
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