Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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Great news for the RN and the UK defence industry. Obi Wan what will become of the Harriers? Will they still be take out of service??
The last 16 Harriers from 1(F) sqn, IV(R) sqn and 800NAS had their final ceremonial flypast on the 15th december, and all flying has now ceased. The sqns won't officially disband until next january or possibly april depending on which report you believe. The aircraft are apparently to be kept flyable for the short term pending attempts to seel them to another country; although they are basically AV-8Bs, they have differing avionics from other nations' Harriers so couldn't just be added to say the Italian, Spanish or USMC Harrier fleets. The total remaing flyable fleet is about 50 airframes, with at least another twenty available as spares. The pilots of 800NAS will probably follow their 12 comrades who would have been used to form 801NAS earlier this year but were diverted to join the US Navy's training program for a three year tour of duty. The RAF pilots will mostly be absorbed into the Typhoon or Tornado fleets. As far as the RAF are concerned, the projected buy of F-35Cs is purely and solely to replace the Tornado GR4s. If the light blue get their way, these aircraft will never see the deck of a carrier. That's what Cameron meant when he said our carriers will need to be compatible with French and American naval aircraft, because under current plans we won't have any!
The RAF are crowing about having apparently destroyed the Fleet Air Arm, and are also briefing that the 28 HC3 Merlins will not now transfer to the CHF, which will simply disband when the HC4 Sea Kings are withdrawn in 2016. There has been no official announcement about this, but the subject was raised at Prime Minister's Questions recently and the Boy Cameron said he'd look into it. Don't hold your breathe on that...
Personally I think the RN isn't going to take this lying down, but they are keeping thier powder dry for the moment. The fact is we are still getting both new carriers, the bulk of the amphib force will still be available in 2020 (minus one LSD), 6 T45s, 13 T23s and T26 on the Horizon. I think the RAF has won a Pyhric victory, in keeping Tornado they have hung on to a decrepit airframe that will not be upgraded further, and have tied it's retention to the operational needs of the 'Stan. Once we are out of the Stan in 2015, expect the government hatchet to descend swiftly on the remaining Tornados long before the Lightnings start to appear. Also the Tornado fleet is one major airframe fault from permanent grounding, not an uncommon occurence for a military aircraft fleet of similar age. The situation will actually be that when the F-35Cs arrive, the Navy will have two sqns worth of trained carrier qualified pilots and the RAF will have none with the relevent qualifications. I wouldn't be surprised if the USN finds it hard to allocate exchange posts for the light blue Limeys during the period too...
Well, I've picked up a post from tphuang on the Navy page an put in perspective with the fact that by 2016-2017, Europe will not have any big carrier operational while at the same time, India and China might get both 2 operational carriers.
Europe will not get any because the CdG will get her second major refit by this date (every 7 years it has to be done) and UK will still get QE awaiting operational status.
While at the same time, India will get the Vikramaditya and maybe the first Vikrant no so far.
China will for sure gets its Varyag at sea with maybe another or two "sister" ship.
It will be very odd to see both IN and PLAN getting CVBG at sea while Europe will lagg behind with LHA/LHD combo.
tphuang said:
Europe will not get any because the CdG will get her second major refit by this date (every 7 years it has to be done) and UK will still get QE awaiting operational status.
While at the same time, India will get the Vikramaditya and maybe the first Vikrant no so far.
China will for sure gets its Varyag at sea with maybe another or two "sister" ship.
It will be very odd to see both IN and PLAN getting CVBG at sea while Europe will lagg behind with LHA/LHD combo.
Mr T
Senior Member
China won't have a real carrier battlegroup operational by 2015. Even assuming it has the carriers launched, completed and in service, the aircraft ready, etc it will still need many years to get used to operating them and their escorts together properly.
As for "Europe", you're talking about a continent, not a single country. Those like Italy and Spain can't afford to operate pure aircraft carriers anymore. There's also an argument that it's damn useful to have capital ships that are flexible. France hasn't been able to get its act together over a new carrier. Ours were delayed because of a budget crunch. It's not that surprising.
On the other hand, China has a defence budget pushing $100 billion (provided you don't buy the official stats). You can easily put something aside to spend on pursuing aircraft carriers.
Neutral Zone
Junior Member
The people who to my mind have come out of the SDSR without any credit have been the top brass. Instead of working together to produce a coherent plan for the national interest they went into bitchfest mode and used the time trying to put one over the other services while at the same time protecting their pet projects. The RAF was desperate to get ownership of the F-35's while the RN was desperate to protect CVF, the result was a lack of joined up thinking which gives us the current mess.
The one good thing that can come from this is that it's focused attention on the MoD's failures and there's a realisation that major reform of the Ministry is needed. It's grown far too big and cumbersome and has got too cozy with the contractors. It needs to be trimmed back and it's culture changed, the same goes for the top brass but I doubt any British politicians have the guts to face them down. Sad to say that nearly a hundred years after the observation was first made we still have "Lions led by Donkeys." :nono:
The one good thing that can come from this is that it's focused attention on the MoD's failures and there's a realisation that major reform of the Ministry is needed. It's grown far too big and cumbersome and has got too cozy with the contractors. It needs to be trimmed back and it's culture changed, the same goes for the top brass but I doubt any British politicians have the guts to face them down. Sad to say that nearly a hundred years after the observation was first made we still have "Lions led by Donkeys." :nono:
Mr T
Senior Member
I just think it's the problem you get when civilians try to run a military - they often have no idea what to do. This can crop up in procurement or other areas. They have to rely on advice, but who can they rely on to tell them the whole story without prejudice? Everyone is biased, because there isn't enough money sloshing around to keep all the services happy.
It's a hard job, and I don't see any easy answers.
EMALS has launched it's first real aircraft. A F/A-18E was launched by the cat two days ago at a test facility. The next day, more launches took place. Next year tests will continue with different types of aircraft.
Seems that program is actually runinng smoothly, an important part of the new carriers for the USN.
Seems that program is actually runinng smoothly, an important part of the new carriers for the USN.
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