Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Troika

Junior Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

I read this article a while ago, the guy write this article with out anything to prove, what he has evidence to support his view? that Varyag is only a training ship? how he knows that China will be imitated Elizabeth aircraft carrier? why dose he think China next carrier will not be a catapult CV?
is he a PLAN leader?
how reliable this article?

I don't think it is very reliable for reasons you already stated.

Elizabeth CV has different completely set of capabilities and systems, very few of which China has (see: Entire airwing). To think will base even loosely Elizabeth CV betrays staggering ignorance of entire design and procurement process of ships.

To suggest it is nuclear power is equally egregious. China has submarine-capable nuclear reactors, but after the floating joke that is Charles de Gaulle nobody is in a hurry to build another CV with such powerplants.
 

montyp165

Senior Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

I don't think it is very reliable for reasons you already stated.

Elizabeth CV has different completely set of capabilities and systems, very few of which China has (see: Entire airwing). To think will base even loosely Elizabeth CV betrays staggering ignorance of entire design and procurement process of ships.

To suggest it is nuclear power is equally egregious. China has submarine-capable nuclear reactors, but after the floating joke that is Charles de Gaulle nobody is in a hurry to build another CV with such powerplants.

The flaws of the de Gaulle are more to do with tonnage being too small rather than the reactor issue itself, but I would consider it preferable for the PLAN to build a reactor plant for surface ships tested on a cruiser design before putting in a carrier as a means of ensuring a perfected design.
 

Troika

Junior Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

The flaws of the de Gaulle are more to do with tonnage being too small rather than the reactor issue itself, but I would consider it preferable for the PLAN to build a reactor plant for surface ships tested on a cruiser design before putting in a carrier as a means of ensuring a perfected design.

Please don't talk as if you know the trouble of de Gaulle. Tonnage was the least of her problems. Her problem started months before she was even laid down. And reactors was a major issue. Look up K15 and fuel used and problems with placement of reactor - and why.
 

montyp165

Senior Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

Please don't talk as if you know the trouble of de Gaulle. Tonnage was the least of her problems. Her problem started months before she was even laid down. And reactors was a major issue. Look up K15 and fuel used and problems with placement of reactor - and why.

Tonnage was an issue before she was even laid down, trying to squeeze too much into a barely 40,000 ton design led to many compromises which invariably affected performance. De Gaulle needed to be at least 45,000 tons empty for basic efficiency, and the K15 reactor issues have been pretty apparent too. :coffee:
 

Troika

Junior Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

Tonnage was an issue before she was even laid down, trying to squeeze too much into a barely 40,000 ton design led to many compromises which invariably affected performance. De Gaulle needed to be at least 45,000 tons empty for basic efficiency, and the K15 reactor issues have been pretty apparent too. :coffee:

This shows how much you know - she started life as nothing like 40,000 tonnes ship, and that ending up at 36,600 tonnes standard, 42,500 tonnes full was just a symptom of her problems.

I give hint. Check out reactor. Understand why DCNS picked that reactor design. Find implications of structural integrity, placement of elevators etc.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
One question we must always ask is if the equipment we are purchasing is needed. Is so then there are the follow up question, such as:

1) Is it the most cost effective equipment for the use intended?
2) What is the functional life span of the equipment (before it becomes obsolete)?
3) What are the annual maintenance costs of the equipment to be purchased?
4) Is there a substantial secondary investment required for the equipment which is to be purchased?
5) And finally, what will be the return on the investment?

Aircraft carriers can be basically divided into three group: super carriers, such as those operated by the Americans and soon to be English (Queen Elizabeth) & Chinese; the light carriers such as the French, Brasil and English (ex Hermes), etc.; and the small carriers (or helicopter carriers, V/STOL), such as the Italians, Spanish, English, etc.

Aircraft Carrier projects military power and operates with a main fleet, where it provides an offensive capability. The Light Carriers provide fleet defense, such as merchant ship convoy defense or protection of and amphibious assault group. The small carriers basically provide support for amphibious landings and ASW defense.
• Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery
• Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery
• Short Take-Off Vertical Landing
Using catapults and arrestor cables are necessary if you are planning to use larger aircraft incorporating heavy payloads and fuel for longer ranges. Carriers without this system reduce weight, complexity, and space needed this system. Russian and future Indian carriers include a ski-jump ramp for launching conventional aircraft. The disadvantage of the ski-jump is the penalty it exacts on aircraft size, payload, and fuel load (and thus range): large, slow planes such as the E-2 Hawkeye and heavily laden strike fighters like the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Sukhoi Su-33 cannot successfully launch using a ski-jump because their high loaded weight requires either a longer takeoff roll than is possible on a carrier deck, or catapult assistance, although the Su-33 does launch with a light fuel and weapons load from a ski jump, However then you have to get into that whole in-flight refueling problem.

Now back to the questions at hand:
1) Is it the most cost effective equipment for the use intended? Unless you are a super power and need to perform extends offensive operations, or control and maintain open shipping lanes, the use of a super carrier is not needed. If the intent is to just to provide fleet air and ASW defense or support limited amphibious operations, then a light carrier will fill the role. This of course is keeping in mind that you are projecting military power. If military power is not being projected overseas, then the point is mute.
2) What is the functional life span of the equipment (before it becomes obsolete)? The problem with many of the second hand carriers is they are being sold for a reason. They have become functionally obsolete in the nation they currently serve and the costs to modernize the vessel to current standards (in addition to maintenance cost) are prohibitive. That is why you see many “second hand” carriers serving in 3rd world, or developing nation’s navies. Those countries could not spend the monies require to build a carrier, therefore they are left with purchasing the carriers used and performing the upgrade themselves, or in the nation that sold them the carrier.


3) What are the annual maintenance costs of the equipment to be purchased? Carriers are expensive to buy, upgrade and especially maintain. The crew of a carrier needs to constantly train to maintain an effective readiness. Use have all the maintenance operations of a large cruiser plus the complication of aircraft landing and taking off, aircraft, munitions, fuel, maintenance. It’s a well choreographed symbiotic operation and thusly expensive.


4) Is there a substantial secondary investment required for the equipment which is to be purchased? Yes, it’s not only the purchase, modernization, training, and maintenance as mentioned above, but also the cost aircraft and associated equipment.


And finally, what will be the return on the investment? This is the subjective question. Again, unless you are projecting military power overseas (i.e. foreign shores), what’s the point. If the objective is to prove that you are the biggest dog on the block, then yes mission accomplished. But at what cost? You have diverted resources that could have been used elsewhere in your Navy to one unit which requires a great deal of support and funds.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Well here's artist rendering of a never built Soviet CV I found..golly can you expound on this photo(painting)??

2qu6afb.jpg


golly said..
Looks like some scifi fanart to me, at least it doesen't correspond to any "real" never where carrier project. Also the flying boxes were little wierd..

Ravenshield and red moon also have opinions. Ravenshield firts;

i wanted to say that i think those flying boxes, if you look closely, on top of the boxes there's a small illustrated object. i think they're actually suspended by something, probably choppers.

red moon says;

To me it looks like the "flying boxes" are banners, like the one hanging from the front of the ship, except they are suspended from choppers or something flying in the air. It looks a bit dangerous in that weather and at night, and maybe pointless, since people would not be able to see the banners, but it's a painting.

These comments were originally posted in the professional forum. All members feel free to comment on the photo in this thread.

popeye
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Looks like the USMC has "invaded" the HMS Ark Royal..I hope all goes well!

Twelve AV8B Harriers, and 143 personnel from the US Marines embark on HMS Ark Royal, flagship of the Auriga exercises currently underway in the western Atlantic.

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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Sorry for not replying sooner, small matter of work getting in the way, plus its been very hot and humid here and my creaky old laptop doesn't like those conditions! Poor thing has been wilting somewhat... Anyway, the artist's impression in post 1029, come on didn't anyone recognise it? I know they've been out of service for a while but there is no mistaking the shape of a modernised (SCB-27C/-125) ESSEX class carrier! The artist in question though has seen a picture of one but made some (possibly deliberate?) mistakes, the bridle catchers have been put on upside down, and as he probably had no idea what they were anyway he has added some more along the side of the deck... Nice picture though. My guess is it is Japanese in origin, judging by the style. Think Manga/Anime.

Good to see the USMC Harriers back on a British CV, they loved their time on Lusty a few years back and apparently are loving the Ark just as much! No longer playing second fiddle to the helos on a Gator, now they are priority one on a strike carrier they can really stretch their legs and do much more than CAS. If only NSW could have joined them for this excercise.

And finally it's great to see the two Spanish flat tops together at long last, what a beautiful sight! Look forward to seeing JCI fully operational soon.
 
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