AEGIS and AEGIS Like escort combatants of the World

now noticed inside

Japan launches first ship of new destroyer class
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it should be

"Aegis Baseline J7 is the Japanese equivalent for the current Aegis Baseline 9/BMD 5.1 standard."

related ("The Baseline 9/BMD 5.1 variant is referred to as J7 for Japanese destroyers." etc.) is
Lockheed Martin gets $135m contract for Aegis Baseline 9 deliveries to Japan
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
New Atago

DDG-179:

DDG179.jpg

First two Atagos. DDG-177:

DDG177.jpg

DDG-178:

DDG178.jpg

They also have four of the Kongo class, which are like the Atago, but without the hanger. So with those four, ul;timately four Atagos, and the six Akizuki and Ashi, they will have 14 AEGIS, or AEGIS like DDGs of very high quality and strong capability.

Here's one of the Kongos (they are all alike:

DDG173.jpg

Here's the Akizuki:

DDG-115.jpg
 
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Jason_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Continuation of discussion from the Type 054B thread.

Ok, we disagree. I however believe it's highly likely that Aster has a better p/k than a development of a 1980s airframe.
The HQ-16F is effectively a clean slate design having deleted the wings and added lateral rocket motors.
Enormous wings are good for p/k
No, they are not. Wings are not control surfaces and their purpose is to generate lift at the expense of drag.

P/K is completely meaningless since it will be wildly different against different types of targets and the UK/MBDA have absolutely no way to test it against actual threats so the number is made up.
there is however a downside in range. Also, PIF-PAF is a huge factor.
The HQ-16F also have both aerodynamic control plus lateral thrust rockets, which is what PIF-PAF is.
Radar horizon is the most relevant in defending against sea skimmingAShM.
Which is why the world's leading navies invest in AEW and CEC.

The increase in radar horizon from a radar mounted at 40m vs one mounted at 25m is small (21nm vs 18nm against a 10m target). Moreover, a better comparison may be reaction time against representative threats. In this case, a Type 45's 21nm detection range give it around 40s against a YJ-18 terminal stage traveling at mach 3. On the other hand, a Type 054B would have over 120s against a NSM/harpoon at mach 0.8.
Ok, the Type 054B will have a full-time Type 003 escort?
It is widely expected that the Type 054B will operate as part of a PLAN CBG, or in the vicinity of the Chinese coast within range of PLAAF AEWs.
Which is a point defence. Sea Ceptor is +25km.
Sea ceptor is slightly heavier and shares the same rocket motor and airframe as the air to air ASRAAM, which has a 25km range when launcher from a fighter jet at at altitude. Sea ceptor achieving the same performance at sea level from a stationary launcher defies reason and is likely an exaggerated claim from a very generous or ideal test scenario.

The HQ-10 also has IIR and passive RF dual mode seekers against sea ceptor's ARH.
How big is the array? SAMPSON is 4.8m in diameter.
The exact dimension is unknown for now but visually, the Type 054B's radar appears bigger. And I forget to mention this but most likely the Type 054B's radar is liquid cooled which allows for higher radar power compared to the air cooled SAMPSON.
Look, the Type 054B is a great frigate but comparing it to T45 in AAW is Jai Hind type of behavior.
Its Jai Hind to think a 20 year old design with numerous well-known design limitations can compete with a early 2020s design from the world's most advanced shipbuilder.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
in 2016, against two C-802 (export version of the YJ-83) off the coast of Yemen:

USS Mason (DDG-87) fired 3 missiles, 2 SM-2 and one ESSM as well as a Noulka decoy. One C-802 hit the water on its own, and it's unclear whether the second C-802 was successfully intercepted by electronic countermeasures or missed its target:

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"The Mason was not hit by either missile. But the Navy is not certain whether its defense system stopped the first incoming missile or it just fell into the sea about 12 miles from the ship. The second missile fired at the Mason fell about nine miles from the ship, one of the officials said."

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Not exactly the peer to peer test that I think gets implied with “proven in combat”.
 

SquireAU

New Member
Registered Member
Continuation of discussion from the Type 054B thread.

The exact dimension is unknown for now but visually, the Type 054B's radar appears bigger. And I forget to mention this but most likely the Type 054B's radar is liquid cooled which allows for higher radar power compared to the air cooled SAMPSON.

Its Jai Hind to think a 20 year old design with numerous well-known design limitations can compete with a early 2020s design from the world's most advanced shipbuilder.

The age of the design does not imply per se that it's inferior; Type 45 is widely regarded as cutting-edge in terms of its independent electric propulsion system, compartmentalisation and extremely tight manufacturing tolerances. Chinese shipyards are still behind in precision compared to Type 45 or the Elisabeth-class aircraft carriers, though they are able to achieve a slightly lower level of precision at much higher output.

I would be surprised if the upcoming Type 26 frigate was not better in acoustic silencing than 054B, simply because of the wealth of experience that the UK has in this area and the amount of effort that they put into it.

Similarly, the Rolls-Royce MT30 gas turbine is ahead of the GT25000 and CGT30 gas turbines that are fitted on PLAN vessels in terms of efficiency, maximum power output, size, weight and silencing.

Whether this makes any difference in real terms is a different matter; there's a diminishing rate of return for these kinds of things.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Similarly, the Rolls-Royce MT30 gas turbine is ahead of the GT25000 and CGT30 gas turbines that are fitted on PLAN vessels in terms of efficiency, maximum power output, size, weight and silencing.
Why do you bringing in CGT30 for comparison? It is a turbine burning natural gas for power staion or gas pipeline, not used by any PLAN ships or any ship at all. Engines are purposefully designed for different power output for their use cases, there are lots of GTs being more powerful than MT30. Fuel efficiency isn't related to it's max power output.

See CGT30
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
If the Type 054B is equipped with the 160km class ARH HQ-16FE and GaN AESA it would be substantially superior in anti-air warfare compared to the Type 45, and indeed all warships from Europe.

No. A Type 45 is substantially better than a Type 054B at AAW.
1. You can't compare HQ-16FE to Aster 30. Aster has the best P/k of any SAM in the world, the Type 45 carries 48 of them. Type 054B carries maybe 32-48 of the worse HQ-16FE.
2. The T45 radar is mounted higher, it can see better over the radar horizon compared to Type 054B.
3. As a complement to SAMPSON, the T45 carries S1850M. The Type 054B secondary radar is (speculated) to be C-band which can't compare to S1850M at long-range detection.
4. The Type 45 is also being upgraded with 24 Sea Ceptors, new diesel sets and radar software upgrades.
5. There are many ships in Europe that outclass Type 054B in AAW, some of them: Horizon, Type 45, FREEM DA, IH, Sachsen & F100


This is continuing from the 054B thread, and I think it is worth discussing to a limited extent here in the separate thread simply because the 054B is an interesting example/comparison with some of the Eurofrigates.

My first belief is that I think Jason is incorrect to say that 054B would be "substantially superior in anti-air warfare" whether it's compared to Type 45 or "all warships from Europe".


I do actually believe that in many respects 054B is likely to be competitive in certain domains of capability compared to a number of high end European warships, including large European surface combatants including Type 45, Horizon, FREMM DA Sachsen, F100, and in some respects possibly superior.

That is partially because 054B is using the sensors and weapons systems of China of the current era, while many of the European destroyers/frigates, while certainly very capable and having received their own upgrades, are running hardware from the 2000s. It doesn't help that some of those warships (like FREMM, or Horizon in terms of their primary MFR) have objectively less capable sensor configurations than 054B.

That said, a number of those warships are also significantly larger than 054B (particularly Type 45 and Horizon), and thus have more growth capacity and SWAP-C to work with and perhaps additional sensor sets (like SMART-L), and may have a slightly larger VLS load as well.... which is why ships like Type 45 and Horizon by displacement are better compared to 052C/D as being in the same displacement category.


BUT it is also unavoidable to acknowledge that by virtue of the increased size, modern sensor fit and weapons capabilities that 054B will offer, it approaches the capability many of the European high end AAW destroyers and frigates in service today.
That in itself is somewhat a sign of the times -- that the PLAN's lower end blue water capable workhorse surface combatant that will almost certainly be mass produced, will have overall capabilities that approach the high end limited number destroyers/frigates of Europe, all while not considering the PLAN's higher end 052Ds and 055s.
 
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