AEGIS and AEGIS Like escort combatants of the World

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
"The investigation into the cause of the starboard propellor shaft fault found that there was an installation error. More specifically, Wallace added that based on “initial reports” the shaft was misaligned by as much as 0.8mm to 1mm. “A tiny amount that, of course, can make a huge difference at sea,” he explained."

In the CCTV documentary on 054A, installation tolerance for the propeller shafts was stated as 2mm.

Every installation has a tolerance range. Misalignment is the error beyond that installation tolerance. In your example, the 0.8mm to 1mm are the errors, not the tolerance which is unknown.

You should not just pick a nice looking number and interprete it in your favored way.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Type 45 is widely regarded as cutting-edge in terms of its independent electric propulsion system
Type 45 is a joke, outcome of stupid archetectural incompetence, lack of integration test and project management neglectance. The breakdown of the ships in action, the invetigation and following remedy has proven so. The subject has been discussed in length in this forum.
 
Chinese shipbuilding, electronics, rocket, electrical, turbine technology have caught up to or surpassed UK technology. Economies of scale advantages in manufacturing, particularly ship building and electronics provide China a massive cost advantage in terms of cost of building warships. However, it is still a stretch to argue that even a 2020s Chinese general purpose frigate is going to be a more effective AAW platform than a high end British AAW destroyer. Design flaws or not, Type 45 are significantly larger and lay much higher on the capability vs cost spectrum than 054Bs. Many specs/details of the 054B's electronics and armament are unknown/not available and will likely not be known for some time. Until more data is available, any meaningful comparison between 054B and Type 45 or any of the current/upcoming European Large Frigates/Destroyers is not going to be constructive/sensible. Once we have that data, we may be able to make statements such as Type 054B can provide around X% of <Insert European FFG/DDG here> for only Y% of the cost, where Y is much less than X.
 

Jason_

Junior Member
Registered Member
However, it is still a stretch to argue that even a 2020s Chinese general purpose frigate is going to be a more effective AAW platform than a high end British AAW destroyer.
How is it a stretch? Name one area (other than magazine depth) where any European warship is clearly superior to Type 054B. Name one AAW mission or threat type that a European warship can handle that the Type 054B cannot. Name any European warship with GaN S-band AESA arrays or CEC.
Design flaws or not, Type 45 are significantly larger
The Slava-class cruisers are even larger, and when designed represented the pinnacle of Soviet air defense technology with its S-300F system.Today it can't even stop a Neptune/harpoon missile.
and lay much higher on the capability vs cost spectrum than 054Bs.
They lay on the opposite ends of the capability vs cost spectrum. One is high capability low cost, the other high cost low capability.
 

zavve

New Member
Registered Member
How is it a stretch? Name one area (other than magazine depth) where any European warship is clearly superior to Type 054B. Name one AAW mission or threat type that a European warship can handle that the Type 054B cannot. Name any European warship with GaN S-band AESA arrays or CEC.
Just by the T45 having a higher placed main radar, the Type 45 is superior to the 054B in engaging sea-skimming AShM (the most common threat to a ship right now). Aster is a lighter, smaller "dart", with bigger wings and PIF-PAF in comparison to HQ-16F which is a very big and heavy missile without a lot of control surfaces, this most likely means that Aster has a better p/k. There are a bunch of S-band GaN AESAs in Europe, but many of the warships carrying them are currently in the building process. Some examples are: NS100, Sea Fire, TRS-4D, Giraffe 4A, SPY-7.
They lay on the opposite ends of the capability vs cost spectrum. One is high capability low cost, the other high cost low capability.
If you honestly believe that then there's no point in having a discussion with you. The ships are meant for very different missions. Regarding overall capability (ASW, ASUW & AAW combined), I agree that Type 054B has an edge over T45 but the T45 is a specialist AAW as I've told you many times.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Aster is a lighter, smaller "dart", with bigger wings and PIF-PAF in comparison to HQ-16F which is a very big and heavy missile without a lot of control surfaces, this most likely means that Aster has a better p/k.
Here's the spec on the HQ-16FE courtesy of by78. Maximum maneuver load is 35G

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Jason_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Just by the T45 having a higher placed main radar, the Type 45 is superior to the 054B in engaging sea-skimming AShM (the most common threat to a ship right now).
Not actually that much of an advantage as I explained before. Against representative threats, a Type 054B would have three times as much time as a Type 45 to react against a sea skimming missile.
Aster is a lighter, smaller "dart", with bigger wings and PIF-PAF in comparison to HQ-16F which is a very big and heavy missile without a lot of control surfaces, this most likely means that Aster has a better p/k.
This is just not how it works.
There are a bunch of S-band GaN AESAs in Europe, but many of the warships carrying them are currently in the building process. Some examples are: NS100, Sea Fire, TRS-4D, Giraffe 4A, SPY-7.
In other words, the radars equipping current European warships is one to two generations behind the GaN S-band AESA radar on the Type 054B.
If you honestly believe that then there's no point in having a discussion with you. The ships are meant for very different missions. Regarding overall capability (ASW, ASUW & AAW combined), I agree that Type 054B has an edge over T45 but the T45 is a specialist AAW as I've told you many times.
History is full of examples where multi-role weapon systems outperform specialist systems of the previous generations (e.g. main battle tanks better than specialist tanks they replaced, modern multi-role fighters better at either air to air or air to ground). This is especially the case for warships since the Type 45's "specialist" role reflects budgetary restrictions, obsolete doctrine, and inferior naval design.

Furthermore, I would argue that in general, that are no high end weapon systems coming from European. A cursory review would show that Europe:
  • is behind even Turkey in producing a fifth gen stealth fighter
  • cannot produce AEWs or bombers
  • has a negligible drone industry
  • has no exo-atmospheric or high altitude ballistic missile defense systems
  • has no long range SAM comparable to SM-6, 48N6, or HQ-9
  • has no hypersonic missiles or advanced conventional ballistic missiles
  • has vastly inferior space capabilities compared to US or China
In this context, the Type 45 may well be considered "high end" by European standards, but it is not high end by world standards.
 

coolgod

Colonel
Registered Member
You know the days of gunboat diplomacy is truly over when Europeans have to jump to a Chinese Defense Forum to proclaim how Europeans ships are still relevant. When was the last time a Type 45 transited the Taiwan Straits or the South China Sea?
 
In other words, the radars equipping current European warships is one to two generations behind the GaN S-band AESA radar on the Type 054B.
Unless you know the size, power, T/R count and processing capabilities you cannot conduct any kind of radar comparison on the basis of, "generations ahead." We don't have any specs regarding the 054B's radar or power output at the moment, so it's not possible to do any kind of serious comparison. At the end of the day, a bigger ship with more power is going to be able to send more power to its sensor suite and its ECM/ECCM systems.
 
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