AEGIS and AEGIS Like escort combatants of the World

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Standardization could definitely be a part of it... however standardizing only a half dozen ships (3 Shivalik and 3 Kolkatas) doesn't really seem worth it to me, I think the 76mm must offer some performance that the IN wants.

Maybe they value rate of fire and capability against aerial targets more than range/warhead/naval based fire support.


It's just a little disconcerting seeing a 76mm gun on a ship that's about 7000 tons heavy.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Bltizo said:

Standardization could definitely be a part of it... however standardizing only a half dozen ships (3 Shivalik and 3 Kolkatas) doesn't really seem worth it to me, I think the 76mm must offer some performance that the IN wants.

Maybe they value rate of fire and capability against aerial targets more than range/warhead/naval based fire support.

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Well they do plan 3 improved Shivaliks and four improved Kolkatas...so now we are talking a total of 13 ships if they use the same gun on all of them.

As to the gunfire, those Oto Malera do have that DART guided munition for anti-air engagements available for the 76mm cannon. Perhaps that is a part of it.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

I heard they have problem regards to the SAM collaborating with the Israel. So its a destroyer conducting trial with 70% capabilities completed?

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Lion said:

I heard they have problem regards to the SAM collaborating with the Israel. So its a destroyer conducting trial with 70% capabilities completed?

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Barak 8 is not yet operational on Indian ships , although Israelis claim that they integrated their version on Sa'ar 5 corvettes . BTW , Barak 8 supposed to be coo-production between Israel and India , but so far almost all the work was done by Israelis . Indian press is already talking about huge bribing scandal (just like with Barak 1 missiles) because India overpaid untested missiles with hyped specifications from producer with relatively low experience in SAM matters .

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

thunderchief said:

Barak 8 is not yet operational on Indian ships , although Israelis claim that they integrated their version on Sa'ar 5 corvettes . BTW , Barak 8 supposed to be coo-production between Israel and India , but so far almost all the work was done by Israelis . Indian press is already talking about huge bribing scandal (just like with Barak 1 missiles) because India overpaid untested missiles with hyped specifications from producer with relatively low experience in SAM matters .

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Well, the Kolkata VLS can carry both the Barak 8 and the Barak 1. Clearly, the Barak 1 is a short range, close in anti-air weapon ranged 1-12 km. But the Kolkata can operate with these missiles if necessary while waiting on the Barak 8 missile which is the longer ranged missile (out to 70 km), and really the reason for a big part of the Kolkata design as a multi-mission, very capable anti-air DDG escort for India's high value vessels, mainly the carriers.

So, with this understanding, and the fact that the Barak 8 is not ready for the Kolkatas (or other Indian vessels) the Kolkata's weapon systems and their availability look like this:

4 x 16 VLS for a combination of 64 missiles including:
- Barak 1 Short range (1-12 km) - AVAILABLE
- Barak 8 Medium Range (to 70 km) - NOT AVAILABLE
2 x 8 VLS for 16 BrahMos LACM/ASuM missiles - AVAILABLE
1 x 76mm Oto Malera super rapid fire DP gun - AVAILABLE
4 x AK-630 30mm CIWS - AVAILABLE
2 x RBU-6000 ASW Rocket launchers - AVAILABLE
2 x 2 ASW Torpedo tubes - AVAILABLE
2 x ASW Helicopters (Sea King, HAL Dhruv, Ka-27, etc.) - AVAILABLE

So the vessels will be able to be deployed with a fairly strong suite of weapons and the sensors to go with them...but not outfitted with one of their primary mission weapons, that of the 70km range barak 8 missiles for defending their carriers.

Since the Israelis are already deploying their Barak 8 missiles, I think it is only a matter of time, and probably not too long, before the Indians have them for their vessels too (but the longer it goes, the more embarrassing it is, and the more vulnerable their principle vessels are).

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

The Barak-8/Indian Naval LR-SAM projects revised probable date of completion is December 2015, which is some 4 and half years behind schedule, quiet understandable as technological challenges of new technologies some first of its kind are being tested and applied here.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Apong said:

The Barak-8/Indian Naval LR-SAM projects revised probable date of completion is December 2015, which is some 4 and half years behind schedule, quiet understandable as technological challenges of new technologies some first of its kind are being tested and applied here.

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Yes...schedule slippages can be expected. But the three Kolkatas first started launching over seven years ago. Clearly there were major project issues beyond normal slippages.

In addition, the Israelis are deploying the Barak-8 now, so the major technical issues associated with the technology itself are probably overcome at this point. It is most probably the integration of the Barak-8 systems into the Indian fire control and sensors that is now holding up the deployment is my guess...which is another project management oriented issue INHO.

As it is, as I say, in a couple of years they should have them and that will be well enough in time for the Vikrant when she is in trials and commissioning. In the mean time, I expect the Barak-1, 30mm CIWS, and other vessels, like the Delhi class, will provide for the Vikramaditya until that time.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

And they'll probably have to add a year or two on top of 2015 to actually get IOC never mind FOC on the kolkatas as well, going by the rate of weapons certifications on board the ships of other navies

the IN needs these ships quite desperately, even if there are only three of them and even if their SAM only has 70km range.


Right now the IN's longest range SAM is the Russian 9M38 and 9M317, and 30km and 50km slant range fired by arm launchers simply isn't good enough if they want a modern and comprehensive layered defense for a CVBG.


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From what I've read, the problem isn't with the missile system or even integrating the missile system with the ship (note the Kolkata is actually equipped heavily with Israeli sensors and the all important main MFR), but rather, poor ToT terms and project management on the Indian side has lead to an inability for India to actually manufacture the missiles and it will take at least 2015 for the IN to get its hands on any Indian produced barak 8s.

If the IN wants I think they could buy Barak 8s straight from IAI, to expedite the in service date a little.

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Jeff Head said:

Well, the Kolkata VLS can carry both the Barak 8 and the Barak 1. Clearly, the Barak 1 is a short range, close in anti-air weapon ranged 1-12 km. But the Kolkata can operate with these missiles if necessary while waiting on the Barak 8 missile which is the longer ranged missile (out to 70 km), and really the reason for a big part of the Kolkata design as a multi-mission, very capable anti-air DDG escort for India's high value vessels, mainly the carriers.

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Yes , Kolkata-class was designed primarily for fleet air defense and to escort Indian carriers . But as it stands now , they (Kolkata's ) would need escort themselves by ships armed with Shitl systems .

But ,as Blitzo pointed , Shtil system is not designed for fleet air defense . It could engage limited number of targets - enough to defend frigate operating alone or in small group in medium threat environment , not to defend aircraft carrier group . Even worse , INS Vikramidtya currently has no CIWS and INS Viraat has just Barak-1 . Therefore , if IN wants to employ them in actual shooting war (lets say against Pakistan) , they would have to stay far from Pakistani coast and their anti-ship missiles .

Re: Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Bltizo said:

And they'll probably have to add a year or two on top of 2015 to actually get IOC never mind FOC on the kolkatas as well, going by the rate of weapons certifications on board the ships of other navies

the IN needs these ships quite desperately, even if there are only three of them and even if their SAM only has 70km range.


Right now the IN's longest range SAM is the Russian 9M38 and 9M317, and 30km and 50km slant range fired by arm launchers simply isn't good enough if they want a modern and comprehensive layered defense for a CVBG.


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From what I've read, the problem isn't with the missile system or even integrating the missile system with the ship (note the Kolkata is actually equipped heavily with Israeli sensors and the all important main MFR), but rather, poor ToT terms and project management on the Indian side has lead to an inability for India to actually manufacture the missiles and it will take at least 2015 for the IN to get its hands on any Indian produced barak 8s.

If the IN wants I think they could buy Barak 8s straight from IAI, to expedite the in service date a little.

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Other then SAM Barak Air defense system is also known as AMD, Anti-Missile Defense, it is expected to defeat supersonic missile (like that of supersonic anti ship cruise missile).

That is something that makes this missile special.