2019 India-Pakistani border clash

maint1234 said:

I believe the floodgates for future punitive action on pakistan have opened with this bombing run.
Indian planes crossed into Pakistan, so chances of getting shot or crashing in PoK are present. If India had also shot of bvr missiles from the safety of their own loc, like Pakistan has done, no chance of being captured.
India has basically sent a clear message to Pakistan that terrorist attacks will have a cost. Whether Pakistan accepts the damage or not, the message is conveyed.

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The "clear" message was received only by Indians from their own media spin machines; internationally, it was lost in translation. What the message actually said coming out was that India has worse pilots, can be baited into acting rashly, and when the situation is hot, may start firing on other Indian aircraft by accident.

If the floodgates are open, where is the flood? The gates open and all the fell out are 2 Indian wreckages, 7 dead Indians, and 1 IAF pilot with a bruised face. What a message!

jatt said:

why? It was not India that had sighted pilots, captured pilots or declare that they had one in a hospital and by 3pm turned to 1 pilot captured.
If you instance the situation was reversed, and Indians make a claim of capturing 1 PAF pilot declared another in hospital with 1 more on the run hours after the opening of a war and by 3pm that same after noon say you only have 1 pilot, I would think India is incompetent and or hiding a lose. Fog of War got the better of Pakistan.

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At least they got 1 pilot. India swore they shot down an F-16 and ended up being proven incorrect by a US count. Before the wreckage and pilot of the MiG-21 were produced, India said they lost nothing. 2 lies, proven wrong. Now that's incompetent and confirmation of attempting to hide loses by India.

Honestly it seems like Indians online really desperately want anyone who would listen to them to believe their lies. Indians need to ask themselves the above questions and why did their media deny any losses at first? I recall that denial was also official. At least there was silence from them until Pakistan produced the pilot and then it was quietly recognised while the attention was diverted to demanding for their pilot back. That becoming their new goal posts and a victory was celebrated after his return. I remember some people even claiming that IAF pilots are not allowed beards so that man was clearly a fake. Everything that doesn't fit their fairytales is a fake... probably manufactured by those evil communists

So despite all the attempts at destroying Pakistani reputation, why did India get caught out on several proven lies and attempts at manipulating the facts? This completely destroys India's reputation and casts everything else they've claimed into question (as if there was a nation left on Earth that still believes in Indian big talk).

Indians still think China started the 1962 war. That's why they kept the Henderson-Brooks report classified for so long. Just as much spin there as you see here. Lesson here is don't screw with the party that helps perpetuate your fiction. In other words don't make it out that you shot down an American made F-16 and then don't claim it was shot down just because you have an American made AMRAAM that missed as evidence of shooting down an F-16. The US is bound to refute your claim so therefore the lie dies with a short life. The lie of the 1962 war is still living because no collateral damage to the fibbers.

ougoah said:

Honestly it seems like Indians online really desperately want anyone who would listen to them to believe their lies. Indians need to ask themselves the above questions and why did their media deny any losses at first? I recall that denial was also official. At least there was silence from them until Pakistan produced the pilot and then it was quietly recognised while the attention was diverted to demanding for their pilot back. That becoming their new goal posts and a victory was celebrated after his return. I remember some people even claiming that IAF pilots are not allowed beards so that man was clearly a fake. Everything that doesn't fit their fairytales is a fake... probably manufactured by those evil communists

So despite all the attempts at destroying Pakistani reputation, why did India get caught out on several proven lies and attempts at manipulating the facts? This completely destroys India's reputation and casts everything else they've claimed into question (as if there was a nation left on Earth that still believes in Indian big talk).

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It's fascinating that for a senior member like you claims made by media and made by a official spokesperson carry the same weight.
The Pakistan spokesperson in a press conference claimed to have 2 Indian pilots at 12 pm. Then this was repeated at 5 pm by the Pakistani PM in their parliament. Even after a week the Pakistani spokesperson gave a TV interview in which he claimed that the 2nd pilot was dead. In the meantime he has flip flopped to one pilot.
In comparison the Indian airforce chief categorically refused to give estimates of terrorists killed in the balakot camp since it was not his area. He claimed to have hit the assigned targets. The same targets Pakistan still has a issue letting journalists have free access to after 45 days. Nothing the Indian official spokespersons have said has been retracted or proven false. Just using media reports for creating a false equivalence between the value of Indian and Pakistani official statements is laughable.
Now people here try to discredit the radar evidence given by IAF without any contrary arguments . I guess these guys only believe in wvr fights and bvr engagements are beyond their mental capacity, since bvr is totally radar dependent.

maint1234 said:

It's fascinating that for a senior member like you claims made by media and made by a official spokesperson carry the same weight.
The Pakistan spokesperson in a press conference claimed to have 2 Indian pilots at 12 pm. Then this was repeated at 5 pm by the Pakistani PM in their parliament. Even after a week the Pakistani spokesperson gave a TV interview in which he claimed that the 2nd pilot was dead. In the meantime he has flip flopped to one pilot.
In comparison the Indian airforce chief categorically refused to give estimates of terrorists killed in the balakot camp since it was not his area. He claimed to have hit the assigned targets. The same targets Pakistan still has a issue letting journalists have free access to after 45 days. Nothing the Indian official spokespersons have said has been retracted or proven false. Just using media reports for creating a false equivalence between the value of Indian and Pakistani official statements is laughable.
Now people here try to discredit the radar evidence given by IAF without any contrary arguments . I guess these guys only believe in wvr fights and bvr engagements are beyond their mental capacity, since bvr is totally radar dependent.

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I'm a low quality member here. It's your choice to take my thoughtless posts as indicative of the overall quality in this forum and its many other contributors.

Yes the Pakistani side of the "pilots in captivity" claim officially changed. I have never denied this. What are you trying to suggest though? Because I can tell you now that whatever conclusions you are drawing from this fact alone is pure conjecture. Maybe they did have that many in captivity and there are infinite reasons why they chose to change the official statement. Flip flopping doesn't tell us that much except for getting everyone to start speculating based off what they would personally prefer to believe in.

Personally if India managed to actually take out the terrorists in the supposed training camp who were responsible for attacks against India, I'm glad for them. Maybe the attack was totally the success you are claiming it is but so far the only hints that this is even a possibility is in Pakistan's supposed reluctance to show the site. You do realise there are plenty of reason why they might be doing this even if India really only managed to miss their targets right?

For the air fight, all we really know is IAF Mig-21 shot down by PAF. No knowledge of which platform did the job and everything else is pure chest thumping and speculation. The radar evidence given by IAF has been "debunked" by plenty of people. I don't know if what they say is accurate since I'm not an expert so I won't comment on that. But I'd personally find it more of a relief to learn that a Mig-21 can indeed take out an F-16 given the right circumstances and even in uncontrolled ones.

At least they got 1 pilot. India swore they shot down an F-16 and ended up being proven incorrect by a US count. Before the wreckage and pilot of the MiG-21 were produced, India said they lost nothing. 2 lies, proven wrong. Now that's incompetent and confirmation of attempting to hide loses by India.

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What US count? The Pentagon or Lockhead have made no official statement. But that doesn't even matter. Within the first 2 hours of the the engagment of the aircraft, Pakistan made a statement of having Pilots! not a single pilot, until after India's MEA made a statement of loosing 1 aircraft 1 pilot and claim. The Indians Must be stupid on their part don't you think because the stated officially a Mig-21 shot down a PAF aircraft. When they could have tried to make it more believable if they said it was Su-30 or Mig-29 that shot down a PAF aircaft while a Mig-21 was shot down.
The Indian statements never changed in regards to this 3 minute war. Had the Indians made a statement of capturing or hospitalizing a enemy pilot, and switched statements within hours you'd think India is incompetent and/or lying about loses. I mean which pilot was in the hospital?
heres the dgispr the Official state mouth of Pakistan. Within an hour talking about the attack and offically claims to have 2 pilots captured with one in the hospital. You don't make these kinds of mistakes likely to the world. This is a slow moving car crash.

looks like

Those Who Live In Glass Houses Should Not Throw Stones

type of situation

jatt said:

What US count? The Pentagon or Lockhead have made no official statement. But that doesn't even matter. Within the first 2 hours of the the engagment of the aircraft, Pakistan made a statement of having Pilots! not a single pilot, until after India's MEA made a statement of loosing 1 aircraft 1 pilot and claim. The Indians Must be stupid on their part don't you think because the stated officially a Mig-21 shot down a PAF aircraft. When they could have tried to make it more believable if they said it was Su-30 or Mig-29 that shot down a PAF aircaft while a Mig-21 was shot down.

The Indian statements never changed in regards to this 3 minute war. Had the Indians made a statement of capturing or hospitalizing a enemy pilot, and switched statements within hours you'd think India is incompetent and/or lying about loses. I mean which pilot was in the hospital?

heres the dgispr the Official state mouth of Pakistan. Within an hour talking about the attack and offically claims to have 2 pilots captured with one in the hospital. You don't make these kinds of mistakes likely to the world. This is a slow moving car crash.

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But then following your logic, why would Pakistan lie about having two pilots? Why not have just told the "truth" as one pilot captured? Most likely it was either a state of confusion on their part due to inaccurate first reports, or because they really do have more than one pilot. The fact the changed the statement if it is because of first possibility, it is nothing worth noting. If it is due to second possibility, it could be because they decided to restructure how they are going to go about navigating the diplomatic and propaganda show for the following months. It alone doesn't mean PAF lost an F-16. That much is certain. Having said that, there's of course a definite possibility that they have lost an F-16. Indian posters are just being very fallacious about all this "evidence". As much if not more than Pakistani posters with claims about Su-30MKI.

Indian official statements haven't changed. Media statements are flip flopping all over the place, going wild with self made claims and speculation. Please leash this free press. Getting too high on freedom and ignoring reality!

Why didn't India make a more easily believed claim (if they are lying) of a more modern fighter shooting down an F-16 or even a JF-17? Who knows. But again this doesn't mean it is definitely telling the truth because the claim is so unlikely, therefore having a greater chance of actually being true. I'll counter the argument with this. If Mig-21 indeed shot down a PAF F-16, why hasn't the pilot officially claimed this yet? Why are all the A2A missiles recovered with seekers more or less intact? Why hasn't the US outed Pakistan about losing an F-16 and covering it when many in Washington would love to do this to Pakistan? Why hasn't any nation come out in support of India's claims... nations which may have a perfect understanding of what actually happened (it takes a VERY long time to completely cover up a downed F-16 to eyes in space that pass the area at least once every 24 hours). So then the official claim that Mig-21 shot down an F-16 is far more unlikely to be true.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

At this point both sides have been spun there own naritives.
India doesn't seem to have hit the chosen target. Not allowing access doesn't mean it was damaged, heck it could mean more of a confirmation of Indian claims that it was a training camp rather than actually hitting the target. After all if the Pakistani Intelligence agency was backing militants their the media being on the scene would provide proof.
Pakistan retaliated for the incursions with its own which was predictable.

Once things got started India and Pakistan proved they could cross the line of control but at great risk. India lost a mig21. That could have easily been a JF17 or F16 or Su30.
Both sides inflated victorys at that point by claiming the other lost one of their premier types. This was bulstered by the ease of Social media.
India did loose a helicopter to friendly fire. We know that now. Yet again that could have just has easily happened on the other side

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Perhaps you have not been following the latest developments, but Pakistan did organise media access.

From the pictures and video of this visit, especially the heavy security, it seems clear that safety was the main reason for the delayed access.