2019 India-Pakistani border clash

maint1234 said:

But you must accept that Pakistan has a habit of hiding its losses.
We have seen this in kargil.
In awacs case where they lost 3 planes.
In LoC where their minister said in Parliament that troop losses cannot be disclosed as it would effect morale of the army.

What makes you think they are being transparent now ? 20 minutes media visit after 40 days.!!

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Evidence. There's no evidence, satellite, or other, that suggests that India hit anything important. There's undeniable evidence that Pakistan shot down an Indian MiG-21 and captured the pilot. There's contradictory evidence to the Indian claim that an F-16 was shot down. And there's no evidence that an Indian MKI was shot down. It's not disputed that India shot down its own chopper killing 7. So, looking purely at evidence (and throwing aside reputations of honesty), I would say that assuming that something did not happen unless there is evidence that it did, India failed to hit anything meaningful in its strike, 1 Indian MiG-21 was downed, pilot captured, no F-16 or MKI was shot down. India lost 1 chopper with 7 people.

If we were to consider reputation, then I would say that India is far less trustworthy than Pakistan because the only inconsistency seen on Pakistan's side is that it once claimed that it captured 2 IAF pilots with 1 in the hospital while that turned out to be incorrect (perhaps they confused someone with a pilot?), but India first denied losing an aircraft until the wreckage and pilot were produced and then it claimed to shoot down a Viper, which was debunked by a US F-16 count. India lied with no possibility of mistake on at least 2 accounts. So... while without evidence, I would believe neither side, if I had to pick, I would certainly not trust India over Pakistan.

Wow it's like this guy needs his hands held through basic thinking processes. I get that some people are just this blinded by nationalism and are not really this thick in other aspects of life, but surely this is taking the piss.

He should start by clearly stating what he is trying to imply in a passive aggressive way. That Pakistan is lying across the board or at least fudging things here and there to presumably save face as if saving face and winning some pointless PR war is worth the risks of lying and redirection of efforts.

If this is the case, can he answer why India was proven to have lied about F-16 wreckage? Sure maybe they DID shoot down an F-16. That's entirely possible still at this point. But why did they lie about having evidence? Indian media presenting the Mig-21 wreckage as F-16's was a caught out lie. India claiming an AMRAAM somehow goes towards proving F-16 was shot down is faulty logic. It merely proves F-16s were operating. India assuming that F-16s were operating goes towards proving one was shot down is again faulty logic. Just because Pakistan at first said no F-16s were used. Maybe they were not covering a loss? Maybe they simply wanted to hide F-16 involvement. Claiming F-16 wasn't used despite the opposite being true STILL does not equate to a loss. Maybe it was all semantics and it's important to define how these F-16s were "not used".

Pakistan Airforce did bomb Indian territory and did choose not to inflict damage. Quite possibly because the Indian raid was a failure and didn't cause damage. Why would Pakistan be afraid of India? Pakistan can end India entirely if they wanted to. Why would they be afraid to inflict damage on India if India actually managed something in their raid? I mean they've already flown into Indian territory and dropped ordinance. They also shot down at least one IAF fighter. What proof does India have on their supposedly successful raid? Zero real evidence.

On top of this, the Mig-21's A2A load was mostly recovered with all seekers recovered to show their warheads did not detonate. How is the Indian story possibly true if the pilot did shoot down an F-16? Also why has he never mentioned his shooting down of an F-16 even after being returned to the safety of India? Again Indian side caught out in an incongruency. If it was another plane that shot down the F-16, why are their stories claiming the shot down Mig was the one that managed to down an F-16?

Pakistan doesn't need to show anything at this stage. With the above summation of the facts, it is clear what is really going on. You can be disappointed at the discussions at this forum. They don't align with the feel good stories you are being fed and the echo chamber of Indian discussion forums.

manqiangrexue said:

If we were to consider reputation, then I would say that India is far less trustworthy than Pakistan because the only inconsistency seen on Pakistan's side is that it once claimed that it captured 2 IAF pilots with 1 in the hospital while that turned out to be incorrect (perhaps they confused someone with a pilot?), but India first denied losing an aircraft until the wreckage and pilot were produced and then it claimed to shoot down a Viper, which was debunked by a US F-16 count. India lied with no possibility of mistake on at least 2 accounts. So... while without evidence, I would believe neither side, if I had to pick, I would certainly not trust India over Pakistan.

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In case anyone wants to point out that the US might be covering up the F-16 loss, keep in mind that current sentiment within US government against Pakistan is highly negative and has been since the Osama Bin Ladin raid. If an F-16 had been shot down, someone would've leaked it to embarrass Pakistan.

maint1234 said:

But now we see that Pakistan in their own words "deliberately " missed Indian army posts in retaliation. Just compare the 2 statements, India says we bombed mainland Pakistan and killed Pakistanis while Pakistan is downplaying and saying nothing happened and we did not even try to target Indian facilities. Not a very effective detterent in my view to future Indian punitive attacks.

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.... The level of delusion here is spectacular. I'm almost impressed at the mental gymnastics you forced yourself through in order to reach such a conclusion.

Dude, the only reason the PAF even waited to respond with its airstrike is because we were so confused as to what to attack in retaliation to a failed bombing. This was an official statement from the PM, lol.

And then you lose a Mig and shoot down your own Chopper during our retaliation... And somehow, your conclusion is, that India weakened Pakistan's deterrence? Wow.

1 failed bombing + 1 lost Mig + 1 Fratricide Mi17 + 1 pilot captured = India wins.

^ your math needs work.

IMO india should ask russia to do a Su30MKI count too, like the f16 count done by US. This will either help debunk pakistan's claims of a MKI shoot down, or... give us more materials to enjoy talking about.

Mohsin77 said:

.... The level of delusion here is spectacular. I'm almost impressed at the mental gymnastics you forced yourself through in order to reach such a conclusion.

Dude, the only reason the PAF even waited to respond with its airstrike is because we were so confused as to what to attack in retaliation to a failed bombing. This was an official statement from the PM, lol.

And then you lose a Mig and shoot down your own Chopper during our retaliation... And somehow, your conclusion is, that India weakened Pakistan's deterrence? Wow.

1 failed bombing + 1 lost Mig + 1 Fratricide Mi17 + 1 pilot captured = India wins.

^ your math needs work.

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I believe the floodgates for future punitive action on pakistan have opened with this bombing run.
Indian planes crossed into Pakistan, so chances of getting shot or crashing in PoK are present. If India had also shot of bvr missiles from the safety of their own loc, like Pakistan has done, no chance of being captured.
India has basically sent a clear message to Pakistan that terrorist attacks will have a cost. Whether Pakistan accepts the damage or not, the message is conveyed.

maint1234 said:

I believe the floodgates for future punitive action on pakistan have opened with this bombing run.
Indian planes crossed into Pakistan, so chances of getting shot or crashing in PoK are present. If India had also shot of bvr missiles from the safety of their own loc, like Pakistan has done, no chance of being captured.
India has basically sent a clear message to Pakistan that terrorist attacks will have a cost. Whether Pakistan accepts the damage or not, the message is conveyed.

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At this point both sides have been spun there own naritives.
India doesn't seem to have hit the chosen target. Not allowing access doesn't mean it was damaged, heck it could mean more of a confirmation of Indian claims that it was a training camp rather than actually hitting the target. After all if the Pakistani Intelligence agency was backing militants their the media being on the scene would provide proof.
Pakistan retaliated for the incursions with its own which was predictable.

Once things got started India and Pakistan proved they could cross the line of control but at great risk. India lost a mig21. That could have easily been a JF17 or F16 or Su30.
Both sides inflated victorys at that point by claiming the other lost one of their premier types. This was bulstered by the ease of Social media.
India did loose a helicopter to friendly fire. We know that now. Yet again that could have just has easily happened on the other side

TerraN_EmpirE said:

At this point both sides have been spun there own naritives.
India doesn't seem to have hit the chosen target. Not allowing access doesn't mean it was damaged, heck it could mean more of a confirmation of Indian claims that it was a training camp rather than actually hitting the target. After all if the Pakistani Intelligence agency was backing militants their the media being on the scene would provide proof.
Pakistan retaliated for the incursions with its own which was predictable.

Once things got started India and Pakistan proved they could cross the line of control but at great risk. India lost a mig21. That could have easily been a JF17 or F16 or Su30.
Both sides inflated victorys at that point by claiming the other lost one of their premier types. This was bulstered by the ease of Social media.
India did loose a helicopter to friendly fire. We know that now. Yet again that could have just has easily happened on the other side

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liked
bulstered
typo LOL! sorry

bulls... is somehow included, 'bulstered by social media' sounds great to me

IMO india should ask russia to do a Su30MKI count too, like the f16 count done by US. This will either help debunk pakistan's claims of a MKI shoot down, or... give us more materials to enjoy talking about.

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why? It was not India that had sighted pilots, captured pilots or declare that they had one in a hospital and by 3pm turned to 1 pilot captured.
If you instance the situation was reversed, and Indians make a claim of capturing 1 PAF pilot declared another in hospital with 1 more on the run hours after the opening of a war and by 3pm that same after noon say you only have 1 pilot, I would think India is incompetent and or hiding a lose. Fog of War got the better of Pakistan.