2015 PLAN Update & Review by Jeff Head

Well, how about this.

No evident second carrier by 2016...you win.

2nd carrier evident in 2015 or 2016...draw, for the time being...everything is on hold..

Any 3rd carrier starting build by 2020...you lose.

A third carrier starting after 2020 and it remains a draw?

So I win with which? No evident 2nd carrier by beginning of or end of 2016?

3rd carrier in the water on or before 2025 I lose? My point is only 1 or 2 carriers in the water for the next 10 years.

When does China need to start on a carrier in order for it to be in the water by 2025?

A multi-year bet is rather drawn out though and different time frames for different conditions doesn't seem like a good comparison.

What is your interpretation of China's grand strategy? I'm all ears.

You can be all ears to my existing posts since I, and China itself, have already stated it.
 

Jeff Head

General
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So I win with which? No evident 2nd carrier by beginning of or end of 2016?
Let's say start of 4th quarter...that would be Sept 1st of 2016. If there is no evident 2nd carrier by that time then you win hands down.

When does China need to start on a carrier in order for it to be in the water by 2025?
They would have to start it in the 2020-2021 time frame.

But the fact is, if they do not have any 2nd carrier building by the middle of next year...you win.

If they do...then the best you can do is draw.

You only lose in this scenario if there is a 3rd carrier building by the end of 2020.
 
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Let's say start of 4th quarter...that would be Sept 1st of 2016. If there is no evident 2nd carrier by that time then you win hands down.

They would have to start it in the 2020-2021 time frame.

But the fact is, if they do not have any 2nd carrier building by the middle of next year...you win.

If they do...then the best you can do is draw.

You only lose in this scenario if there is no 3rd carrier building by the end of 2020.

I think you meant "You only lose in this scenario if there is 3rd carrier building by the end of 2020." Right?

I am game if Blackstone is. I'd also welcome others to join in on the bet on either side.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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So I win with which? No evident 2nd carrier by beginning of or end of 2016?

3rd carrier in the water on or before 2025 I lose? My point is only 1 or 2 carriers in the water for the next 10 years.

When does China need to start on a carrier in order for it to be in the water by 2025?

A multi-year bet is rather drawn out though and different time frames for different conditions doesn't seem like a good comparison.

I'd say no evident first domestic carrier by end of 2016. We may well have evidence of a carrier by end of 2015 but the nature of the hull fabrication means it may not fully look like a carrier until 2016.

For a second domestic carrier, I'd say no evidence of construction by end of 2020 (same conditions as first domestic carrier).

Also, it may turn out in future that construction of a carrier may have started before we identify it here on SDF via pictures, so if in a few decades time we learn that subsystems and/or initial steel cutting occurred before that time then those also become valid benchmarks.

A caveat for both benchmarks also, is that this is assuming no drastic economic slow down that reduces or inhibits military funding.

I think the key to this bet is we're not trying to measure the exact date of when we see evidence of a carrier but whether the PLAN has short to medium term goals for comprehensive carrier capabilities, and due to that I'd prefer a "no three carriers in water by 2030 in any form" benchmark as the widest spanning most general description.


You can be all ears to my existing posts since I, and China itself, have already stated it.

Actually I'd appreciate clarification on this as well.

You've described what you think China shouldn't need significant carrier capability in relation to some strategic objectives, but haven't described what you believe China's strategic objectives actually are and what tools are necessary to achieve them.

For instance, in relation to naval power I see the two main strategic necessities as being the ability to fight a modern high tech war in the western pacific, and the other being the ability to project power in low intensity conflicts (both to protect Chinese SLOCs against non state actors and/or 3rd rate navies, and also to conduct war against small low tech foes in blue water and around Africa namely to protect Chinese interests, citizens, and to support evacuation if need be)

I've already described why I think both of these two strategic needs require carriers, so I'm interested to see what you think China's naval goals for the future are.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Super Moderator
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Let's say start of 4th quarter...that would be Sept 1st of 2016. If there is no evident 2nd carrier by that time then you win hands down.

They would have to start it in the 2020-2021 time frame.

But the fact is, if they do not have any 2nd carrier building by the middle of next year...you win.

If they do...then the best you can do is draw.

You only lose in this scenario if there is a 3rd carrier building by the end of 2020.

I agree with those terms, but I have a caveat:

"First identification date" of a carrier is not equal to "positive identification date".

That is to say, if we see suspected modules of a carrier at an early date but cannot positively confirm they are a carrier, yet in three years time it turns out it actually is a carrier (because of obvious markings like a flight deck, island, etc), then the first earlier date (first identification date) will become the applicable date relevant to our bet.

For instance, the modules we see at DL's drydock at present are suspected to be for 001A, but it may be a year or two until they are positively confirmed to be for a carrier because it is only by then that the ship will be sufficiently shaped to be identified. Therefore in relation to our bet, early 2015 will be the applicable date.

Same goes for 002. We might see modules at JN in 2018 which are suspected for a carrier, but only positively identified by 2021 to be for the carrier, in that case, 2018 will be the applicable date?

Sound fair and logical?

---

Also, if there is a dramatic economic slowdown that causes reduced military spending, or natural disaster, or war, that is an "outside factor" inhibiting carrier and/or military activities then it is also sufficient reason to either call off or at least renegotiate the terms of the bet.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
"Evident" 2nd carrier does not just mean evidence. It means that the evidence makes it evident (clear) that it is in fact a carrier.

For example, I believe if someone points out something that they believe is a carrier building in, say July of 2020, and that claim is argued...but then later in 2021 it becomes clear that it in fact was a carrier...then it is evident that a carrier was in fact building in 2020 before the cutoff date.

See?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
"Evident" 2nd carrier does not just mean evidence. It means that the evidence makes it evident (clear) that it is in fact a carrier.

For example, I believe if someone points out something that they believe is a carrier building in, say July of 2020, and that claim is argued...but then later in 2021 it becomes clear that it in fact was a carrier...then it is evident that a carrier was in fact building in 2020 before the cutoff date.

See?

Cool, so we agree on what constitutes "evidence". The key consequence of this, is that Panasian may have to wait a couple of years after Sep 1 2016 and 2020 to actually confirm that he wins the bet.
In that case, if the issue surrounding "outside factors" is also considered then I'm in.
 
A caveat for both benchmarks also, is that this is assuming no drastic economic slow down that reduces or inhibits military funding.

You have to account for the risk of that otherwise it is not a strategic analysis. If the carrier program is truly a high priority then China would not cut back on it even if the economy goes down the drain.

You've described what you think China shouldn't need significant carrier capability in relation to some strategic objectives, but haven't described what you believe China's strategic objectives actually are and what tools are necessary to achieve them.

For instance, in relation to naval power I see the two main strategic necessities as being the ability to fight a modern high tech war in the western pacific, and the other being the ability to project power in low intensity conflicts (both to protect Chinese SLOCs against non state actors and/or 3rd rate navies, and also to conduct war against small low tech foes in blue water and around Africa namely to protect Chinese interests, citizens, and to support evacuation if need be)

I've already described why I think both of these two strategic needs require carriers, so I'm interested to see what you think China's naval goals for the future are.

China wants to pursue further development until it reaches per capita productivity and a standard of living for the vast majority of its people that is "moderately prosperous" by world standards by 2050. What does that mean? Let's say China being comfortably within the top third of the world by GDP(PPP) Int$, around 30,000 per the World Bank 2011-2013 actual data.
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In order to do this China needs a peaceful rise. Peaceful means no full scale conflicts with anybody and certainly not one with the most powerful military on earth. Rise needs closer economic integration with every country along the Silk Road and Belt which is the vast majority of Eurasia and Africa, as well as ideally all nations along the Pacific Rim. That's the entire world less some Atlantic Rim countries.

It also means minimal antagonizing anyone in that entire region (beyond China's periphery, because it order to effectively defend itself it has to be able to deliver high intensity combat power along its periphery) with either the capability to project long distance high intensity combat power or any desire to do so which means managing communication and PR, including anyone else's China threat propaganda.

There is no way China's military can match the US, not to mention US + allies, unless China has already achieved its peaceful rise. The Chinese leadership and military knows this. This does not mean they will just roll over whenever the US or its allies come knocking, they will try to maintain a minimum effective deterrence against anyone interfering in its core interests and will play brinksmanship when such interference occurs.

In terms of military tools to achieve this it hearkens back to Mao's "rather have nukes than have pants" slogan for realizing China's nuclear weapons program. Today, it is about hypersonic delivery vehicles, missile shields, lasers, railguns, electronic warfare, cyber, C4ISR, space, drones, nuclear subs, long range bombers, long range missiles, and my fav LHD. All of these are more effective and/or more efficient for China's goals than carriers because they are any or all of the following:
- more survivable
- cheaper
- larger quantity
- can more easily threaten forces who may attack China
- can more easily threaten the homeland of any country who may attack China
- less sensational or less visual thereby less susceptible to China threat negative PR
- more appropriate for humanitarian missions to build positive PR not just for China but also specifically for the Chinese military
- more appropriate for low intensity offensive operations

Starting to repeat some of what I already said, so here, and there are more posts if you care to look them up.

In terms of foreign policy and strategic goals:
- Non-interference in other states' internal affairs.
- Peaceful rise. In other words pushing back the China threat PR campaign.
- Avoiding full scale conflict with the US and probably any full scale conflict that might draw in the US outside of China's core interests, which is clearly identified as Taiwan and the Spratlys, less clearly so the Diaoyus/Senkakus.
- Hedging SLOC's with the Silk Road land route which requires the co-operation or non-interference of countries which may be bothered, justifiably or not, by Chinese naval "expansion", namely the US and India.

A CV program that goes beyond training runs counter to all of the above. However a LHD program has a much less aggressive demeanor, is less capable offensively as you pointed out, and is much more appropriate for MOOTW such as SAR and humanitarian missions, all of which helps all of the above more, or at least doesn't hurt them as much as a CV program. That LHD's are simpler and cheaper than CV's just makes them that much more efficient to have.

If worse comes to worse and China has to fight a full scale conflict with top tier opponents beyond the First Island Chain China has no chance even if it has a few CV's which would just be juicy targets. More importantly the CV's communicate aggression rather than deterrence. Better to develop long range missiles, land based airpower, space, cyber, and even unconventional weapons which stand a better chance of actually deterring a conflict in the first place as well as being more survivable in one.

CV's are even less effective in a full scale conflict within the First Island Chain with top tier opponents, rather it ties down assets having to defend it and all of the above weapons can be both more efficient and more effective in combat than CV's.
 
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