2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

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Mr T

Senior Member
For Russians Ukraine is part of the original Russian soil

That's not justification for an invasion. Or is China going to use that excuse to invade Siberia some day, declaring its treaties with Russia negotiated by an illegitimate government?

The current Ukrainian gouvernment is dominated by people with an ideology close to the Nazis

According to Russian propaganda. Please list all the people in the Ukrainian government that you think are neo-Nazis and back that up with some facts.

Imagine Japan declares that they want to retry all the things from WWII on the Chinese.

Since when has Kiev announced an intention to march on Moscow?

As soon as we send boots on the ground in Ukraine, we will inevitably see people welcoming us with swastikas, Nazi salutes and other goodies of the Third Reich.

That's highly insulting to the people of Ukraine. They are not neo-Nazis and would not welcome a small minority of people pretending otherwise.

Is NATO going to defend the Fourth Reich in the Second Cold War going hot?

Putin's Russia is the real Fourth Reich. Doesn't matter how he dresses up his politics, he's the one with the goose-stepping soldiers invading his neighbours.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
The title of the Tsar was: "Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod!" referring to four important Russian principalities. And the Tsar, who launched the insurgency against the Tartars and united Russia was Ivan III the Great, the "gatherer of the Russian lands".
Well, the word Tsar is derived from the word Cesar; when Peter the Great married a Byzantium princess. That's a claim to the whole of the previous Roman Empire including France, UK, Turkey.. you get the picture. Europe then responed with the Crimean War, to check that Roman aspiration.

Peter I the Great expanded Russian territory to include good access to the seas of the world and its merchandise via harbours that also house a strong fleet of warships protecting the Russian sea lines of communication. There is the legendary greatest shipyard of the Soviet Union, the Black Sea Shipyard in Mykolaiv, Ukraine, up for grabs and with it all implicatins of building a native blue water navy with giant aircraft carriers.
And so back in the day Britain and France responded in the Crimean War, with 100s man-o-war destroying every Russian fortification in the Baltic and sailed towards St. Petersburg.
The current Ukrainian gouvernment is dominated by people with an ideology close to the Nazis that are often taken as neo-Nazis. Russia fought the Great Patriotic War with a loss of millions and millions of humans against the German Nazis who wanted to degrade them to subhuman serfs for a masterrace. Russians are unlikey to follow through on the fine nuance the Svoboda party tries to make between national democrats and national socialists = Nazi.
How are the Ukrainians close to being Nazies?

Besides, Nazi is a party, Facists are their political identity. Ukraine as a part of Soviet Union fought the Great Patriotic War that resisted the Fascist Invaders. National Socialists =/= Nazi; it is just a name. Is the DPRK really democratic?
These are three reasons that give whatever Russian gouvernment green light to launch HELL on Ukraine and take it with all means available, meeting resistance only in the thinly populated remotest Western parts. Economic sanctions are a joke as countermeasures. The pro arguments have the most profound roots of all things Russia consider great about their history and contain everything they want in order to be great again. Plus Putin will inevitably become Vladimir III the Great(est) (president).
The only real countermeasure would be massing NATO's armed forces on the other side of the border. As soon as we send boots on the ground in Ukraine, we will inevitably see people welcoming us with swastikas, Nazi salutes and other goodies of the Third Reich. Is NATO going to defend the Fourth Reich in the Second Cold War going hot?
I mean, history have happened before, if Britian and France was willing to go to the Crimean war to check the expansion of imperial Russia; What makes it so certain that NATO and the EU would not?

Ukraine is no Germany of the 1930s. The German Economy was equal if not bigger than the Soviet Economy; Heer's army is significantly better trained and armed than the USSR; and so is her industry, science and technology.

Thus claiming Ukraine as the Fouth Reich is rhetorical at best, Ukraine cannot lift a finger towards Moscow.

If Russia feels bold enough to launch an invasion of Ukraine, nothing is going to stop them. They know it, we know it and we all need a face saving way out. Afterwards, we can support the democratic rights of neo-Nazis in occupied Ukraine in their free speech attempts glorifying the Holocaust. There are also other Ukrainians, but we live in a world bent on conflict and for this reason black and white pictures prevail.

You can try to dehumanize the Ukrainians as Nazis, but why don't you do the same to the Russians and call them the Sucessor to Stalin's Gulags or something to that order?

And it is not that nothing could be done, the Crimean war showed it. What can Russia do if Nato decides to send 4 armour division with 4 wings of fighter and attack aircraft to buffer the eastern Ukraine; exert local control over the black sea so to starve out the russian forces there? And, sail 7 CVBG up the baltic coast?

What could the Russian do? Honestly Can russia muster a sufficient force that can take on NATO right now? especially given the dire situation of her logistic capacity.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Kurt, the entire Neo-Nazi argument is propaganda and has been warned against on this thread several times and declared off limits. People have been warned and suspended over it. This is your only WARNING.

FOLLOW MODERATROR INSTRUCTIONS

Those warnings about the Neo-Nazi arguements and disussions on this thread were HEREhttp://www.sinodefenceforum.com/mem...s-views-photos-videos-11-6796.html#post273070, and HEREhttp://www.sinodefenceforum.com/mem...ws-views-photos-videos-3-6796.html#post272484.

Again, you are now being warned in a similar fashion.

The Neo-Nazi group is miniscule in the Ukraine, claiming it is running thing or exerting major influence is propoganda, and discussions regarding it (on both sides) are off-limits. They lead to pure ideological arguements, name calling, high emotions, flame baiting, and a breakdown in discourse.

Do not respond to this moderation on the thread.

Follow the rules. Stay on topic. Do not inflame (on either side) the situation or suspensions will be forthcoming and the thread will be closed.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
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And yet Russian propaganda claims that "Right Sector" controls Ukrainian government... I guess they control and protest against it same time. :roll:

yeah maybe it was just emotional reaction to the funeral:
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the video says it shows (since 01:01) the action of a SWAT team against him, but maybe you've seen this footage already

By the way, SWAT teams all over the world don't give you the chance you need, do they? LOL
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Neo-Nazis is a very loaded term and should always be used with great caution.

It is clear though that a lot of the Maidan movement's muscle came from a range of right and far right nationalist groups and parties. It is also true that the "marriage" between these groups and the emerged leadership was always a strange one.
It was easy to write off these groups as useful idiots for the main leaders and that they would be dumped as soon as the revolution was achieved.
This is certainly how it appeared as very few found there way into any government positions and none in to major positions. Many were excluded and have been increasingly sidelined since. In addition we have the removal of Muzycho in an apparent police operation, which certainly had the feel of a "good housekeeping" operation.

There is a problem though. We have experience now in Egypt, Libya and Syria of what can happen when you present a revolution with an politically acceptable and telegenic public face, but which is fronting a movement powered by far less savoury and extreme types. We have seen here that it is not the muscle being used as useful idiots by the front men, but the front men being used as such by the muscle.

Is that happening in the Ukraine? Well the signs are there with these groups angry with being sidelined and now very doubtful of good faith following the death of Muzycho. The big change of course is that in the last month, this street muscle has been transformed from just a riotous mob, into a new and separate paramilitary force.
The new Kiev regime may have done this to make them more manageable, it well may turn out that this actually just makes it easier the the "muscle" to move against and replace the new "failed liberal leadership".
Loss of territory, crippling rise in costs and very painful restructuring are not a recipe for national stability.

Russia in the meantime sits its army on the borders and waits. This reinforces Putin's pledge to protect Russian speaking citizens and enforces de facto partition of the Eastern Regions. Elections are coming in May and Putin is most likely putting his next bet on the Party of Regions being well organised as the new government sinks into infighting and disarray.

If things fall apart completely in Kiev, his forces are ready to roll and re-establish order again.
 
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Franklin

Captain
It seems to me that for the Russians the annexation of Crimea is a fait a comply. The speeches have been made the documents have been signed and the hands have been shaken. Its a done deal and the Russians seems to want to say what is done is done and lets move on.

The West however doesn't see it that way. They want if possible the Russians out of the Crimea (which is unlikely) if not then they want the Russians to pay a heavier price for the Crimea then they have already done. They are talking about a new round of sanctions. The reason for this is first of all they want to deter Russia from annexing other parts of the Ukraine or other parts of the territories of former Soviet republics were there are large Russian populations. Second they want to show China that they won't be able to get away with using force to settle its disputes in Asia. For the credibility of the West they can't just let the Russians annex the Crimea like this. So i think that the hostility towards Russia will continue for a while but they will eventually have a working relationship with them.

I also wonder what kind of effect this will have on the Russian arms industry. Because the Russian arms industry is for a part dependent on the Ukraine. For example all the Russian made helicopters are using Klimov turboshaft engines that needs to be imported from the Ukraine. And there are other parts and things the Russian arms industry needs to import from the Ukraine. The Ukraine has inherited a large chunk of the Soviet arms industry.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Kurt, it is the view of the moderation team that such terms as Neo-Nazis are too loaded to be used in the open forum as it leads to a degeneration in the level and manner of discourse.

It is as such an area that is avoided as a matter of policy. It is not necessary to use the term either as other less loaded terms are just as descriptive.

I would strongly recommend that you accept Jeffs warning and remove your appeal from the open forum, as it is "Questioning Moderation" and then just concentrate on the events.

I think a number of members on all sides of the argument need to calm down and cool off
 

solarz

Brigadier
Is that happening in the Ukraine? Well the signs are there with these groups angry with being sidelined and now very doubtful of good faith following the death of Muzycho. The big change of course is that in the last month, this street muscle has been transformed from just a riotous mob, into a new and separate paramilitary force.
The new Kiev regime may have done this to make them more manageable, it well may turn out that this actually just makes it easier the the "muscle" to move against and replace the new "failed liberal leadership".

From the onset, the Maidan protests were anything but peaceful. Things very quickly escalated out of control, and now it's starting to make sense.
 

delft

Brigadier
I just read on the website of a Dutch broadcaster that Putin has said that the Ukrainian military personnel that remains in the Ukrainian service will received their weapons back and also that military vehicles aircraft and naval vessels will be returned to the Ukraine.
That material will be of little value to Russia and it's a nice gesture to give it back.
 
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