2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

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TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
first there is no official declaration of War.
Second The Ukrainian military in Crimea did defend there positions, However their defense was not a of traditional military nature
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Rutim said:
We've got a hero here!

And on a serious note: not for the first time, and surely not the last. Entire armies did this throught the human kind history.
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Except most armies did this under the threat of being killed.

The Ukrainian army in Crimea defected knowing full well that they would be granted safe passage to Ukraine should they choose to do so.

Those who stayed in Crimea did so because they either valued their ties to Crimea greater than their ties to Ukraine, or they felt that they had a chance for a better future by staying in Crimea. Either way, it says volumes about the current Ukrainian government.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
yes there was a high rate of defection, but to claim that there was no resistance is to understate the situation.
I am Sure it would have been poetic, the last stand of the 30% as the Crimean Military commander personally lead the charge into the Russian tanks. Fighting till there ships were sunk, till there tanks were Hole'd till there RPG's were fired will there Ammo Ran out till their Bayonets Ran Dull till the ground at there feet was red mud and the last of them gave there lives for bases that were in a location that did not want them.
It would have been magnificently pointless.
The Ground Commander had to have seen that all that would have come from a real last stand would have been patriotic suicide.
Starting a War That Ukraine at best could not win and would have found few allies for.
 
SampanViking

SampanViking

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TerraN_EmpirE said:
first there is no official declaration of War.
Second The Ukrainian military in Crimea did defend there positions, However their defense was not a of traditional military nature
Click to expand...

I think that sounds scarily like one of Baldricks "Cunning Plans" - something along the lines of a trap where you let them walk in and then; over the next few thousand years, lull them into a false sense of security.

The Ukrainian Military have not resisted and in all probability will not resist against further Russian operations. Both Kiev and Moscow know this, which means that as we move to the phase of negotiation, that Russia will be able to enforce its demands which will be commensurate with occupation and partion, but without needing to send the physical presence onto more Ukrainian soil to achieve it.

This is the difference that seems to be deliberately being ignored. If Russian forces entered Crimea and other parts of the Ukraine against active resistance, Kiev would have a much stronger position in the inevitable final negotiations and the Russians would need to acknowledge this and make physical and territorial concessions to Kiev. Putin may have taken three steps forward, but his final act would have been a step back.
By not resisting, Putin can press to be given everything that he demands, from the Russian border and needs make no public or physical concession. Even if he does not get everything he demands, he has only gained and has not had to give anything back. It is as simple as that and the tone of continued relations will be determined by this outcome.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
As of yet Sampan, Ukraine Proper is still intact.
There are nine provinces of Ukraine that were taken by Yanokovich in the 2010 election, not counting Crimea, those same nine not counting Crimea are also more then half Russian Speakers and sit closest to the boarder with Russia.
The Crimean Peninsula may have been part of the Ukraine since it's independence form the USSR in the 90's but for over 300 years it was Russian. It became part of Ukraine when the USSR First Secretary Nikita Khrushchev, granted it
Khrushchev despite claims to the contrary was Russian by birth but to paraphrase a American political maverick " He could see the Ukraine from his back yard."
The Question is will Putin push for more and part of that is Transnistria as if Russia Anexes those they would have to cross Ukraine Proper, entering the Western portion of Ukraine and having to deal with the 15 Western Provences who primaraly consider themselves European, voted for Yulia Tymoshenko in the 2010 Election, Do not speak Russian primarily and for who the Russian Deal was a no go.

Some are Arguing that the Action in Crimea was in it's self a Concession, Putin Ripping off a leg of the Ukraine to feed the Hawks in his own cabinet who have been disgusted by the Current state of Russia in the world.
The reliance of the EU on Russian Fuel and the depletion of NATO to feed the Peace Dividend and the dependence on Russia for manned Space, having created a opening He and his can use to get what they want, but those are Dynamics that could shift With the North American Fracking revolution brewing in the US Canada and now Mexico and the three having more fuel reserves then any other Fuel party. The Fuel blood line for the EU. With the Annexation there are bound to be those who feel that the NATO sword may need sharpening which could cause a political shift away form the The Peace dividend. And the US is moving forward with Commercial Crew if successful that would end the Russian/Chinese Monopoly of manned space foolishly granted with the retirement of the Shuttle.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
TerraN_EmpirE said:
yes there was a high rate of defection, but to claim that there was no resistance is to understate the situation.
I am Sure it would have been poetic, the last stand of the 30% as the Crimean Military commander personally lead the charge into the Russian tanks. Fighting till there ships were sunk, till there tanks were Hole'd till there RPG's were fired will there Ammo Ran out till their Bayonets Ran Dull till the ground at there feet was red mud and the last of them gave there lives for bases that were in a location that did not want them.
It would have been magnificently pointless.
The Ground Commander had to have seen that all that would have come from a real last stand would have been patriotic suicide.
Starting a War That Ukraine at best could not win and would have found few allies for.
Click to expand...

Or, you know, they could just take the bus and go back to Ukraine.

The thing is, you're arguing that they did not resist because they could not realistically win. The fact that so many of them defected underscores the point that there was little, if any, willingness to resist in the first place.
 
shen

shen

Senior Member
solarz said:
Or, you know, they could just take the bus and go back to Ukraine.

The thing is, you're arguing that they did not resist because they could not realistically win. The fact that so many of them defected underscores the point that there was little, if any, willingness to resist in the first place.
Click to expand...

people seem to forget that "heroic" unarmed Ukrainian unit confronting armed Russia soldiers was still carrying their Soviet military banner. during WWII, soldiers from eastern Ukraine fought alongside the Red Army, while many from western Ukraine fought with the Nazis and ethnically cleansed their area of Poles and Jews. The present Ukraine military of course trace their linage to the eastern Ukrainian units and it is clean where their loyalty lie. They are undoubtedly as much disgusted as the Russians when they see extremists tearing down monuments to Soviet soldiers. Combined with the poor treatment they received from the corrupt Ukrainian regimes, it is not a surprise the majority are defecting to the Russians. That's why the Kiev regime is raising a new National Guard commanded by party loyalists.
 
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