2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos
- Thread starter bd popeye
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Well, I have seen the videos and anyone on this forum can watch them, of Ukrainian Security Police firing on the crowds of protestors.
I have seen the videos, and anyone on this forum can also watch them, of snipers, amongst the Security Police and security police walking around them, firing on the protestors.
This is all "he said, she said," with no substantiation, and is a pathetic attempt to blame the killing of the protestors on the protestors themselves.
...and US Imperialism? Please. The US has not created an empire of conquered and vassal states. In fact, in war, when the US does defeat an enemy, it generally spends hundreds of billions of dollars and years of time helping that nation rise back to its feet...and sometimes to the point where it challenges the US itself economically. So, drop the imperialism tag. It's another worn out and demonstrably false propaganda tactic.
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Piotr, you are new here. Read the Forum rules. We try and steer clear of pure ideology and attacks against other nations on this forum, and it is strictly moderated to avoid that and keep our discussions reasoned and technical for the most part. If you avoid that, and stick with it, you will do fine. If you do not...you wont.
This is the second time I have had to mention such things to you...the other being on the PRC Geostrategic Position thread. Consider this one a WARNING.
These articles you are posting are full of attempts to do that. It is tough to do in this age where anyone with a cell phone is a reporter with a world-wide audience waiting for them to simply upload it...often from the very spot that they have taken it.
Also, for others, the Maidan Protests were not led by or spearheaded by neo-Nazis. The combined major Christian Churches of Ukraine and the Jewish Synagogues issues a letter, supporting the removal of the President by their Parliament, supporting the protestors, and calling on the people of Ukraine to pray and be resolute in their freedoms and faith, calling on the leaders of the west to support them in Ukraine with prayers, and calling on the people of Russia to protest the actions of their own government.
Those many church leaders would not support any type of activity spearheaded by neo-Nazis. They simply were not. But it is a good prooganda ploy by the the Russians to gen up domestic support. Any Russian who actually believes they are fighting neo-Nazis on their borders will support the effort.
Are their neo-Nazis in Ukraine?
Of course there are. They are very small groups of them in almost every free nation on earth. Some allow them to spew their garbage more than others, but they are universally condemned or ignored.
Enough said.
In the end, as I see it, this entire issue now boils down to this:
1) Putin has outmaneuvered western leaders completely on this. He clearly had strong contingencies in place and planned well before the Sochi Olympics and was prepared, despite the unexpected results of the Maidan protests, to act in what he considered Russia's interests, and despite treaties that his own nation signed guaranteeing the borders of the Ukraine.
2) The Crimea is once again in Russian hands, and they will not be giving it back to the Ukraine in any event. Crimea will vote for total autonomy or independence and for Russian protectorate status.
3) Western leadership is weak and ineffectual. There will possibly be some economic sanctions...but Russia has the ability to counter them in large measure because of the energy situation and the gas he supplies to the whole of Europe.
4) Russia may foster similar votes to that which is going to occur in the Crimea in one or two other southeastern Ukrainian provinces...or not. we shall have to wait and see.
5) The Ukraine will need to continue to be very careful in its efforts to retain the integrity of the rest of their nation. They need to walk a very fine line between showing Russia and Putin their commitment to resist and fight any move by Russian forces to the north and west of Crimea...but to do so in such a way that does not invite that very advance. IOW< they must prepare, show firmness, but not be either precipitous or rash.
6) As to the west in general, and the US specifically. Until the US political landscape changes and a stronger, more assertive and experienced administration is elected, the overall effectiveness of any reaction by the US is going to remain tame at best, and ineffectual in general.
That's just the way things are. Time will tell where it goes from here...but I think that it pretty much how things are at this point.
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Yes, they need a good old Reagan, FDR, Bush Sr, Theodore,...
What would it take to get the US/Nato/EU to send in 2 divisions to stabilize Ukraine? I doubt that Putin is ready for real war...
But Putin might force a war, fraking in the USA, shale gas reserves in Europe and China proper would mean that sooner than later Russia no longer can push Europe around by shutting off the gas tap.
Crimea also so happen to cut one of the land routes for the new "silk road" which the middle eastern nations would have been keen to develop as aforementioned, the US fraking industry will make them impotent compared to the OPEC of 1970s
Jura The idiot
General
Do you know how many soldiers Ukraine mobilized so far (OK, the exact figure, for this early morning of March 6, for example, would be classified, but I can't find even a rough estimate, I mean if it's 10 thousand, 100 thousand, half a million, ... new guys in barracks, holding their rifles)? By the way, wikipedia says: Reserve personnel 1,000,000
@Lezt
How's that? The old Silk Road was as complex as the Ho Chi Minh trail and the new one will be as complex through Central Asia and Turkey or Russia but not through the Crimea because it makes much more sense to continue by rail to other European countries.
Some fifteen years ago all nuclear weapons were removed from Ukraine.
No it doesn't; it gave them up 20 years ago. A quick Google search should tell you everything you need to know.
Simple. It will be called invalid. Just like the election victory of Hamas in the last Palestinian elections.
That is of course what will happen.
It does come at a cost however and I think with the Urmas Paet tape, we are starting to see what that means.
The Ukraine like Estonia and the rest of the Accession countries are all former members of the same club. Behind the "Wall of Sound" Propaganda Machine, there will be a lot of concern in these countries that.a Democratically Elected President can be removed by a foreign backed/orchestrated mob, despite having just negotiated a political settlement, generous to the opposition and all done because the President took a perfectly legitimate decision, that others inside and outside the county, did not like.
I think many of these countries will; at least in private, be very concerned by the what's, hows and whys of all this and wonder if such a fate could befall them if; for instance, they developed a reluctance to place Missile Defence system components on their territory?
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