2013 China Russia Joint Naval Training

mr.bean said:

this is just a wacky thought, but wouldn't it make good sense if Russia and china work on their next generation aircraft carrier together? a carrier project is so incredibly expensive they can both save money and time than if they both go alone (which they are both surely capable of) sort of like britian and france doing their carrier project together. the Liaoning/kuznetsov like you said is a 70's era design and neither china or Russia should be building anymore and coincidently both of them have one. it seems natural their next gen carrier should be with a bigger displacement and more powerful they should like benchmark with what the USN is building. the hull and most systems can be standardized but leaving the most sensitive parts like battle management/electronic systems out so they can each build their own versions. even if they don't do the whole carrier project together then they can at least do joint R&D on two things, the catapult and nuclear propulsion. I don't know how close Russia and china's relations really are so whether this is a feasible thing or just crazy thought. but I think its entirely possible that china/Russia can someday be as close as britian/france.

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Huh? if anything I think that is an example of WHY you don't want to 'share' or develop joint carriers. As close Britain and France is, the project still didn't materalized. France withdrew from the project half way through and now only the UK is building the QE class.

I personally think that would be a very bad idea. Aside form the semi rocky relationship, Russia is not exactly known for complete transparency and has a habit of not following through all the way on projects either. China's GDP and ship building industry is also robust enough that they are able to take on this monumental task all by themselves.

No offense but I think it would be a very very bad idea for PLAN to experiment with any carrier joint venture program with Russia and vice versa from the Russian side.

Phead128 said:

Liaoning needs to be capable to sink Kuznetsov in the event of another Sino-Russian split over Outer Manchuria, so I doubt there will be future cooperation between the two naval carrier groups.

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hilarious post. Really.

Jeff Head said:

They plan 12-16 of them and are supposed to start building the first late this year for launching in 2016.

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I doubt that they will end up building that many. Possible but i doubt it. Even if they build that many, it will take a long time to do it.

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mr.bean said:

this is just a wacky thought, but wouldn't it make good sense if Russia and china work on their next generation aircraft carrier together?

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Great quesion, and in an ideal world, where everyone understood each other, trusted each other, was sure they would have the funds to complete the job, and would follow through to completion, it would work great.

but for each and every one of those reasons, particularly when two nations are involved, alas, it is not an idel world at all.

kroko said:

I doubt that they will end up building that many. Possible but i doubt it. Even if they build that many, it will take a long time to do it.

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I agree that it is unlikely given Russia's history. The were going to build a lot of Sovs and Udalys...but it never happened becasue the Soviet Union imploded, ran out of money and fell. Since that time, Russia has not been able to show that it could sustain its economy long enough to have such a long term building program,

Flashes of brillance and great designs...but either not enough funds, or sporatic funds and thus unable to sustain production for any lengthy serial production.

Perhaps they will stabilize and be able to do it. They certainly want to.

I expect they will try, but when all is said and done perhaps produce 4-6 such vessels.

It has not been lost on the minds of Chinese that Vladivostok was once an integral city of the Chinese empire no less than 150 years ago.

Anything less than full-fledged treaty alliance status, there will be no Liaoning intercourse with Kuznetsov. Even with a full-fledged alliance with Russia, we saw the Sino-Soviet split over Outer Manchuria devolve into near open nuclear warfare, with millions of troops stationed across the tense borders on both sides.

Joint naval training is meaningless, because China has joint naval training with US Via the RIMPAC, so should China send Liaoning to intermingle with Nimitz carrier groups? What a laughable idea.

China will only send Liaoning to intermingle with TREATY ALLIES only - Russia is merely a strategic partner of convenience, since they both conveniently share islet disputes with Japan, a treaty ally of the United States. You won't be see Kuznetsov off the Taiwan Strait or Diaoyutai/Senkaku islets anytime soon when shit hits the fan.

Phead128 said:

It has not been lost on the minds of Chinese that Vladivostok was once an integral city of the Chinese empire no less than 150 years ago.

Anything less than full-fledged treaty alliance status, there will be no Liaoning intercourse with Kuznetsov. Even with a full-fledged alliance with Russia, we saw the Sino-Soviet split over Outer Manchuria devolve into near open nuclear warfare, with millions of troops stationed across the tense borders on both sides.

Joint naval training is meaningless, because China has joint naval training with US Via the RIMPAC, so should China send Liaoning to intermingle with Nimitz carrier groups? What a laughable idea.

China will only send Liaoning to intermingle with TREATY ALLIES only - Russia is merely a strategic partner of convenience, since they both conveniently share islet disputes with Japan, a treaty ally of the United States. You won't be see Kuznetsov off the Taiwan Strait or Diaoyutai/Senkaku islets anytime soon when shit hits the fan.

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Russia and China are not formal military treaty allies yet because the strategic ambiguity of the current geopolitical environment works to their advantage for now, but the moment the US and its lackeys start doing direct threats to either (and bulwarking with hard action) things would change in an instant for the SCO becoming a hard military alliance...

Phead128 said:

It has not been lost on the minds of Chinese that Vladivostok was once an integral city of the Chinese empire no less than 150 years ago.

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That was then, this is now.

The Russians just sent one of their best cruisers and numerous strong destroyers and frigates to conduct joint exercise with the PLAN who also sent their very best operational destroyer and several other DDGs including two of their best FFGs to those exercises.

I have news for you, if these animosities, mis-trust, and anger were as horrible as you describe, none of that would have happened. That's just something you cannot get around...because it did happen, and it is not the first time either, not by a long shot.

Therefore I can only presume (and be thankful for) the fact that the PRC leadership does not hold the same views that you do. Good thing actually.

Phead128 said:

Anything less than full-fledged treaty alliance status, there will be no Liaoning intercourse with Kuznetsov.

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Bravo Sierra. The just concluded Joint Exercises speak so loudly I cannot hear what you are saying.

Phead128 said:

China will only send Liaoning to intermingle with TREATY ALLIES only - Russia is merely a strategic partner of convenience

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Same song as above, just a little different verse...but the same answer.

Phead128 said:

You won't be see Kuznetsov off the Taiwan Strait or Diaoyutai/Senkaku islets anytime soon when shit hits the fan.

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You are focused on war...I have not spoken of war, or China and Russia joining together to fight other nations. I have simply spoken of joint military training and exercises like what just occurred.

I believe that within five years of the Liaoning achieving some form of rudimentary operational status, that we will see the Kuznetsov and the Liaoning conduct some form of joint exercise...and I will applaud that occurance, and be very interested in seeing it.

You disagree...fine. But it is clear from the exercises the PLAN and Russia already conduct with their major combatants, that all of this other talk is just that...talk.

When the United States allows non-treaty allies to conduct joint-carrier operations with Nimitz class carriers, then come back to me about Liaoning intermingling with Kuznetsov.

Otherwise, it's merely wishful non-thinking at it's finest to believe Liaoning will join Russia in joint carrier operations outside a formal alliance with Russia.

mr.bean said:

this is just a wacky thought, but wouldn't it make good sense if Russia and china work on their next generation aircraft carrier together? a carrier project is so incredibly expensive they can both save money and time than if they both go alone (which they are both surely capable of) sort of like britian and france doing their carrier project together. the Liaoning/kuznetsov like you said is a 70's era design and neither china or Russia should be building anymore and coincidently both of them have one. it seems natural their next gen carrier should be with a bigger displacement and more powerful they should like benchmark with what the USN is building. the hull and most systems can be standardized but leaving the most sensitive parts like battle management/electronic systems out so they can each build their own versions. even if they don't do the whole carrier project together then they can at least do joint R&D on two things, the catapult and nuclear propulsion. I don't know how close Russia and china's relations really are so whether this is a feasible thing or just crazy thought. but I think its entirely possible that china/Russia can someday be as close as britian/france.

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When you embark on something as big an complext as a carrier, the project is as much about job creation and maintaining vital capabilities as it is about meeting a defence need.

The problem with two or more countries collaborating is that it would be impossible to get efficiency savings without one or both loosing the ability to design and build the carrier independently. Working out work share can be almost as much of a technical challenge as designing the thing.

On top of that, you have the added problems with having to meet the design requirements of two navies who might not both want the same thing in a carrier. Just look at the mess many pan-European projects run into.

Phead128 said:

When the United States allows non-treaty allies to conduct joint-carrier operations with Nimitz class carriers, then come back to me about Liaoning intermingling with Kuznetsov..

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Ok, Phead128, let's go there.

Are you familiar with the Malabar Exercises?

These are naval exercises that the US regularly holds with India (and other nations of late) since 2002. The exercises regularly involves a US Carrier. In 2005 the USS Nimitz and the INS Viraat exercised together, jointly. In 2007 it was the USS Kitty Hawk. In 2008 and 2011 it was the USS Ronald Reagan. In 2012 it was the USS Carl Vinson. What Military alliance or joint security agreement does the US have with India?

None...and so, phead, I'm getting back to you based on your own conditions...though it is hardly necessary. What the US does in terms of exercises does not and will not be a determining factor on what the PRC and Russia do in exercises together.

Despite exercising jointly with the US Navy and its carriers, India is also an official observer of the six nation Shanghai Corporation Organization (SCO) between, among others, Russia and China. You've obviously heard of that treaty.

Due to the "security cooperation" portion of that treaty, China and Russia have regularly held joint military exercises, including large scale naval exercises. Under that treaty alone it is likely that the two nations will exercise their carriers together to show continued solidarity in security issues.

All of this just makes it clear that the Chinese and Russians are very likely, once the Liaoning is militarily operational, to hold exercise with their carriers together, just as they have done with their other capitol vessels.

Also, getting back to your question...again. Here's another couple of examples. What military or joint security alliance does Malaysia and Indonesia have with the US? They are not a part of ANZUS and they were never a part of SEATO. So which one? Again...there isn't one with the US. And yet Malaysia and Indonesia regularly participate with their naval vessels in RIMPAC with the US Carrier strike group that is a part of it.

So, keep throwing out these slow pitch arguments if you want...and I will keep knocking them out of the park. It's up to you.