09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
I guess we just have to agree to disagree, but one thing I would stress is that the open oceans are not as vast as you might think when it comes to suitable locations for SSBNs to lurk.

Recall that only a few years ago, British and French boomers actually collided with each other while out on patrol. What are the odds of that happening if the whole world’s oceans are all their playgrounds?

So even after breaking out into the open Oceans, don’t be surprised if PLAN SSBNs stay within certain bastions for no other reason that geographical realities limiting the truly best hiding places.

Also, the best submarines in the world are still subject to geographical realities. And being the quietest subs in the world counts for nought if you need to sail past enemy hydrophone arrays and other detection systems that can detect you and assign you an enemy SSN tail wherever you go.

For SSBNs, the only performance metric that matters is the ability to reliably launch on command and hit your targets. If you can do that from home waters, so much more power to you. Just like how you wouldn’t care about an enemy fighter being more agile if you can nail him from BVR ranges before he can even get a chance to put that agility to use.

Also, building a world class SSBN is a long journey, not something you can do in one go. That would be like Jai Hinds wanting their Tejas to be the best fighter in the world and refusing to buy it until then. Compared to China starting with J6s and getting closer to the state of the art with each generation until the J20. Which approach do you think is most effective?

Welp! In that case - I should phone Huludao tomorrow and ask them to stop building any more new SSBNs (and SSNs too).

Oh, and I should also phone the August 1st building tomorrow and ask the PLAN to retire all of their 094/As (and even 093/As) - The sooner, the better.

They're all useless anyway.
 
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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Columbia will also have a reactor that won't need refueling for its service life. That might be resulting in more displacement too. Also there is something a bit funny to mention. The Columbias will accept women for service, unlike Ohios. Having both genders serve on ships increase their displacement. Because it requires the duplication of a lot of living spaces and amenities. Displacement is a lot more significant for subs than surface vessels because it directly determines their submerged volume. Therefore submarine branches are among the last branches to accept women.

How many times do I need to write this one???

In shipbuilding displacement is the equivalent of the weight of the ship. It's not the mass of the entire ship only the mass of the water that it displaces when empty or under different loads. The heavier the load the more its hull submerges and the more water it displaces. This determines the amount of mass that any given hull can carry and not sink below the water's surface (also considering sea state). No other measure of mass of the ship is necessary which is why this traditional measure is still used.

This means that having more displacement is not a problem. Having more mass than maximum displacement is the problem.

For submarines specifically more volume is a problem because volume determines the hull's ability to resist pressure, create drag, sustain pressure differentials etc.

Soviet submarines had greater displacement, especially Typhoon and Oscar, because they used double hull construction which made it possible to put two pressure hulls inside a single outer hull so it made constructing subs with larger internal volumes much easier. For western submarines which used single hull construction volume imposes a hard limit before construction costs grow disproportionately. However western shipyards have never needed to switch to double hull construction because Typhoon and Oscar were early 70s designs which had higher noise levels due to two propellers required for larger hulls. As limiting noise became a priority in the 80s twin-hull design stopped being useful. That reimposed hard limits on single hull submarines even if they used double-hull construction method because it can only increase internal volume so much and advancements in technology provided greater savings of internal space.

While having 20 (ala Typhoon) or even 24 (ala Ohio) IC-SLBMs per SSBN sounds pretty cool - It's not really conductive to concentrate so many nuclear warheads onto one single boat, given how there are plenty of combat (e.g. damaged and/or sunk by enemy action) and non-combat (e.g. maintenance, refueling, accident etc) reasons that would keep an SSBN from performing its responsibilities.

This is not how the calculations were made. The number of missiles per boat was determined by the total number of warheads on patrol.

Ohio had 24 missiles because that is the number that was required for the subs to have to be able to replace the number of warheads already in service on smaller subs of which there were 41 boats with 12 missiles each - a total of 492 missiles. The number for Ohio-class was 14 boats with 24 missiles which was 336 missiles. Ohio entered service along with Trident C-4 but was designed for larger Trident D-5 which was slated to come into service in the 1990s when Benjamin Franklin-class was to be retired.

If it was possible to build more Ohios and faster and keep them in service in larger number they would likely have 16 missiles like Vanguard. But shipyards could only build so many SSBNs and so many could be kept in service which is why they received 50% more missiles than most SSBNs in service including main Soviet SSBN - Deltas which carried 16 (II, III, IV) or 12 (I). There were 43 Deltas total in service, apart from other SSBNs, while USN needed to reduce the number of SSBNs in favour of SSNs. Soviet Union needed greater number of SSBNs because they were aware of the vulnerability of their subs due to the spy ring that got them information on American sonar.

Sure, China may need less boats...

I won't change my avatar to make that joke land as it should, but... fewer

Anyway, as I was saying before it is not the number of boats but the number of warheads on patrol so if China has an ICBM with sufficient number of MIRV and PenAids (especially one capable of trajectory over the South pole) then it likely won't need more than 12 to 16 SSBNs total. SSBN payload is calculated for second strike and second strike is always calculated for everyone regardless of number of belligerents.

This is another element of nuclear strategy that almost nobody is aware of - once you deplete your second strike potential you are defenseless so by definition as soon as you are in strategic nuclear exchange with another nuclear power you are in a strategic nuclear exchange with every nuclear power on Earth.

This is one of the very rational reasons why disarmament talks happened. As soon as the decisionmakers understood the game theory logic of nuclear warfare - which is far more interesting and grim than the "tic tac toe" epiphany in Wargames - it became obvious that there is no reasonable way out of nuclear war. There can never be a limited war because in nuclear exchanges less ammunition doesn't mean a pause in fire until more is made. It means losing the war with a country that you weren't fighting.

Nuclear war is scary this way. Which is why any talk about nuclear exchanges on this forum as if they were a plausible thing are only proof of frightening stupidity of the users engaging in them. Read on nuclear doctrine before you start talking about numbers of warheads or parameters of missiles. People far smarter than you can ever hope to be came up with very reasonable conclusions which is why we had disarmament. None of these psychopaths in power would do it if they could any hope of winning it. There is no hope. Everybody loses. The point of having a nuclear weapon is never to use it. So why have it? Because if you don't have it then someone who has it may use it. So both of you get them and none of you uses them ever again.

And it's not human nature. It's mathematics.
 

Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
Unlike USSR or US, China's strategic infrastructure is built during the launch on warning and global+ range ICBMs.

In the modern era, SSBNs mainly favor nations that can be taken out in a first strike, such as UK, NK, India etc. It does not favor the top 3 nuclear powers who already have land based second strike options, advanced early warning methods and even ABM capability against lesser arsenals.

While China will almost certainly put out the 096 to keep the pace with Russia/US in undersea development, they do not add a capability that wasn't there before, except possibly the ability to first strike the weakest nuclear powers from an unexpected angle. But the chances of that capability ever being used is near 0.

A military should not induct platforms that does not create new capabilities nor can be used in wartime. At most, a few SSBN config 096s should be made to keep the technology of sea launched ballistic missiles alive, like with the 094s.

On the other hand, a 096 hull in SSGN config is something that can be capability adding for China, and an item which they should order as many as the SSN fleet can support.
 

kriss

Junior Member
Registered Member
they do not add a capability that wasn't there before, except possibly the ability to first strike the weakest nuclear powers from an unexpected angle.
They add the capability of strike certain high value targets with very short reaction time. It's harder for China to do this as it requires SSBN to be in close proximity of enemy territory but if this is something PLA plans to achieve in the future they need to develop their SSBN up to the game.
 
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