09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
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TBF, Borei-A still does feature a hump, just that the hump is much more hidden than the ones on the original Borei. Notice the color-contrasting straight line along much of the boat's length on the photographer's side of the hull.
Borei-A, while also carrying 16 SLBMs, is double-hulled - Meaning that the overall dimension of the Borei is actually greater than her single-hulled American counterparts (Ohio and Columbia). Their submerged displacement difference (18000-21000 tons versus 24000 tons) is a good showcase.
Perhaps we may have to wait for SSBNs with 14/15-or-more meters of hull diameter to witness the near (if not complete) elimination of hump on SSBNs (assuming the SLBM's dimension remains the same).
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18,000 tons displacement with 16 SLBM tubes is quite standard for most SSBNs today, but an Ohio-class can fit 24 SLBM tubes within that displacement. So if the Type 096 is also around 18,000-20,000 tons in displacement, might it be possible for it to fit 20-24 SLBM tubes?
Why bring this up? Its just me recalling one of the early rumours about the Type 096 back in 2013, where it was speculated to be designed with 24 SLBM tubes at that time.
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To elaborate on the idea of a SSBN's "hump" a little -- virtually all SSBNs in the world actually have a "hump" and that's because it is determined by the protrusion of the SLBM tubes from the pressure hull.
Here is a pressure hull section of the Columbia class SSBN, note how the top of the tube extends far outside of the pressure hull. That extension outside of the pressure hull is then "covered up" which will be visible as a "hump":
We can see that in action with the preceding Ohio class -- this is a picture back in the day of two Ohio class SSBNs, one on the top has all of its SLBM tubes exposed, with only part of the "hump" covering section beginning to be applied (behind the sail), while the one of the bottom in the drydock is fully complete, in the flooded dock:
What you end up with for the Ohio class, is that its hump actually stretches out quite far from the beginning of the sail to nearly the end of the hull, visible here:
If one looks at the French, Russian, UK SSBNs that we have good quality pictures of, they all follow similar principles.
How "distinct" a "hump" looks on a SSBN depends on how much the SLBM missile tube extends out of the hull (the pressure hull if you are a single hull submarine, a outer hull if you are a double hull submarine), and how "long" you design your hump to be.
Beam is only one factor -- the length of the submarine is also important, specifically the number of missile tubes you expect your SSBN to carry, as well as other supporting crew facilities and subsystems.
The Ohio class is actually a weird example because it carries 24 SLBM tubes, yet the succeeding Columbia class will carry 16 SLBM tubes yet displace a bit more than Ohio (20,000t)
Meanwhile the UK Vanguard class displaces 16,000t submerged and carries 16 SLBM tubes as well of the same Trident missile type -- of course the Vanguard is quite a bit older than the Columbia class, and the Dreadnought class (successor of Vanguard) will displace more, at 17,000t while carrying a smaller number of SLBMs (12 Tridents).
Then there's the French, which has the Troimphant class carrying 16 M51s that are similar in geometry to Trident yet displaces 14,000t submerged, quite a bit smaller than Vanguard which carries the same number of missiles.
Yet despite all of that, the existing generation of in service western SSBNs (Ohio, Vanguard, Troimphant etc) are all considered exceptionally stealthy, so where does the extra displacement for the new generation of western SSBNs go to, and what does that mean for new PLAN SSBNs? I expect part of the displacement goes to the expected new electric/turbo electric propulsion, some added extra insulation, more comfortable (and larger) crew berthing facilities, and to have some growth space as well for the future. How much of that will be relevant for 09VI, hard to say.
Also, Borei is a double hull submarine, so its submerged displacement will be greater than that of a single hull design's displacement like Ohio. Probably isn't a great comparison.
A 16 SLBM SSBN in a 12-13m pressure hull diameter for a single hull submarine could be anywhere from 14,000t to 20,000t, the
Back in 2013 there were never any reliable rumours about 09VI. If you read something like that back then, it was probably just fan made speculation.
As for missile tube count, I wouldn't focus too much over it. The trends of various navies with SSBNs is to move from large SLBM tube count to smaller tube count while keeping SSBN size the same or larger.
Ohio has 24 tubes --> Columbia will have 16 tubes
Vanguard as 16 tubes --> Dreadnought will have 12 tubes
Both Columbia and Dreadnought will displace more than their predecessors.
Some illustrations from an academic paper that I don't have access to, but these appear to depict a SSBN that doesn't match any existing Chinese design. Filing these here for documentation purposes just in case.
I would be cautious about directly interpreting the depicted geometry in that study as bearing what the actual 09VI sail+missile compartment section will look like.
That's partly because the size of the sail, and the actual length of the missile section seem somewhat small to enable 12 (let alone 16) missile tubes of a SLBM size when accounting for requisite clearance (particularly longitudinal clearance).
If one looks at other SSBNs (western, Russian or even the PLAN's own preceding 09IV), there is a decent amount of clearance between the sail and the first row of missile tubes. If one accounts for the need of that, I feel like if this sail+missile section was actually representative of a 12-13m diameter submarine then the number of tubes it can accommodate may be as few as 8 or 10 tubes. While the possibility of something like 12 can't be excluded (a lot of it depends on exact geometries), I do think it's worthwhile to have some caution as to just what this paper may or may not represent, as interesting as it is.
thanks, pic look good, am I missing something, but what does this have to do with China's 095/096?
I don't think the actual tonnage is something we can guess without knowing whether it's double hull or single hull. Although, I'm thinking that if they have the tech for large single hull, they should go for that.
Aside from steel strength and the tools to form large pressure hulls, anything else is required to do large single hull?
I use Ohio class as an example more to point to inner hull beam. Length wise, it will have to be a little longer than 094. at least 150m, to support 16 SLBMs and better berthing (which seems to be something PLAN is going for now).
I am more saying that there's a lot of confounding factors that will influence what tonnage the 09VI will be, and there's no particular reason to think they would "aim" for a submarine that is Ohio in displacement as you wrote, even if it had a pressure hull beam of 13m.
Or putting it another way, a 13m beam SSBN doesn't mean it will be Ohio in displacement, and if one wants to talk about what the displacement of a 13m beam submarine is, it's better to review the other factors that will influence displacement (missile count/length, internal subsystems, crew berthing, hull design).
It's probably useful to actively avoid one on one comparisons in isolation.
As for the rest, I have no opinion on.
Look at the last page of posts. People were discussing whether 09VI may have a "hump" or not for its missile compartment, and the follow on discussion was comparing and explaining the humps of other SSBNs that exist.
If you read the last page to now continuously it should be pretty obvious.
The Columbia will also have a reactor that won't need refueling for its service life. That might be resulting in more displacement too. Also there is something a bit funny to mention. The Columbias will accept women for service, unlike Ohios. Having both genders serve on ships increase their displacement. Because it requires the duplication of a lot of living spaces and amenities. Displacement is a lot more significant for subs than surface vessels because it directly determines their submerged volume. Therefore submarine branches are among the last branches to accept women.