09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread
- Thread starter SinoSoldier
- Start date
Some thoughts on sub noise levels. While a good deal of it can't really be assessed from mere texts and while good deal will surely be hidden - there are certain technology/engineering solution tresholds which contributed quite a bit to to lowering noise levels. (listed randomly, not by importance)
A) Having a single shaft and single reactor. (less machines and less links between them usually means less noise) US subs had these from pretty much the start of their SSN era, right after the Skate class. Soviets lagged 7-8 years until the first Victor class sub when it comes to single shaft and until Alfa class (some 15 years) when it comes to single reactor.
A2) Having a single propeller. While many subs went straight to single prop per shaft, some did have to revert to two props on a single shaft due to power constrains. Victor III is an example of that, even though previous Victors used a single prop.
B) Having engine room machinery suspended on rafts. US did that around 1961 onward, while Russia did that with Victor III some 18 years later.
C) Having anechoic tiles. While Germans used them to some extent in ww2, technology wasn't really ready some decades later. Soviets used them from 1970s, US from 1980s.
D) Using very fine tolerance for production of various precisely made machinery parts, as well as the propeller. Achieved by computers and comp. controlled machines. Used by US since 1960s or 1970s and by Soviets in 1980s.
E) Turbine to propeller link without reduction gears. Requires a very long shaft. Only Ohio class, due to its size, and some of the brand new SSN use this. Possibly newest Russian subs as well.
F) Pump jet propulsor instead of the propeller.
G) Natural water circulation cooling the reactor, instead of using pumped water circulation. US subs had this to some degree since the 80s, it has probably proliferated since. At higher reactor output settings pumps do have to be used, but for slow speeds they can remain silent.
H) Not using a shaft at all. Connecting an electromotor directly to the propulsor. So far no sub uses this but there are indications next US and UK subs will go this route. It may be the next step for everyone.
With all of the above in mind, one can try to guesstimate which points are achievable for Chinese submarine engineers and which are currently too far. While fine differences are not possible to assertain, in general one can expect 093b to feature everything up to and including D). With G) being a quite likely addition as well.
E and F are possibly not yet used but may feature with the next generation. Theoretically even H might be possible sometime during 2020s.
While certainly not scientific and evidently more a guesstimate - I'd say chances are 093b is at least of improved LA class noise level.
A) Having a single shaft and single reactor. (less machines and less links between them usually means less noise) US subs had these from pretty much the start of their SSN era, right after the Skate class. Soviets lagged 7-8 years until the first Victor class sub when it comes to single shaft and until Alfa class (some 15 years) when it comes to single reactor.
A2) Having a single propeller. While many subs went straight to single prop per shaft, some did have to revert to two props on a single shaft due to power constrains. Victor III is an example of that, even though previous Victors used a single prop.
B) Having engine room machinery suspended on rafts. US did that around 1961 onward, while Russia did that with Victor III some 18 years later.
C) Having anechoic tiles. While Germans used them to some extent in ww2, technology wasn't really ready some decades later. Soviets used them from 1970s, US from 1980s.
D) Using very fine tolerance for production of various precisely made machinery parts, as well as the propeller. Achieved by computers and comp. controlled machines. Used by US since 1960s or 1970s and by Soviets in 1980s.
E) Turbine to propeller link without reduction gears. Requires a very long shaft. Only Ohio class, due to its size, and some of the brand new SSN use this. Possibly newest Russian subs as well.
F) Pump jet propulsor instead of the propeller.
G) Natural water circulation cooling the reactor, instead of using pumped water circulation. US subs had this to some degree since the 80s, it has probably proliferated since. At higher reactor output settings pumps do have to be used, but for slow speeds they can remain silent.
H) Not using a shaft at all. Connecting an electromotor directly to the propulsor. So far no sub uses this but there are indications next US and UK subs will go this route. It may be the next step for everyone.
With all of the above in mind, one can try to guesstimate which points are achievable for Chinese submarine engineers and which are currently too far. While fine differences are not possible to assertain, in general one can expect 093b to feature everything up to and including D). With G) being a quite likely addition as well.
E and F are possibly not yet used but may feature with the next generation. Theoretically even H might be possible sometime during 2020s.
While certainly not scientific and evidently more a guesstimate - I'd say chances are 093b is at least of improved LA class noise level.
And one very good catch, a very reliable member from CDF, kcandrew confirm
There are now 2 x 09I (404,405), 2 x 09III (407,408), 1 x 09IIIA and 1 x 09IIIB, a total of 6 SSN's in service with the PLAN. 2 more 09IIIB's are completed but are not handed over to active units yet. 09I unit 403 was commissioned in 1983 and is no longer in active service.
Xia/406 also " on the carpet ".
Remains the number of missiles
Yet i get hull number confirm exactly my notes i think for new also only thing 093A is the 413 almost sure and in more 2 news in construction on GE, worck exactly for number with list very recent in more.
I have yet see this site he is reliable all it takes is doing the right research with the good mandarin
Two new 093B, 113 m long with propeller in dry dock, 11/11.5 m wide i have 093 to 103 m VLS about 10 m so worck for size.
Mainly no pump jet for noise as Hyperwarp thinking a LA Fl I/II what is already a very big improvement.
Definitely with these new all Han replaced and Navy go for have in 2019 8 SSN of 093 family before 5.
Huludao shipyard 06/2016
Mainly no pump jet for noise as Hyperwarp thinking a LA Fl I/II what is already a very big improvement.
Definitely with these new all Han replaced and Navy go for have in 2019 8 SSN of 093 family before 5.
Huludao shipyard 06/2016
I remember reading that before reduction gears were introduced naval vessels used several small propellers on each shaft because a larger propeller would fail due to cavitation. I expect system as described under E) to need a huge turbine to deliver the necessary power at an acceptable rotation speed. While more than a century ago RN went to geared turbines USN kept the steam turbine-generator-motor system even in its early flattops USS Lexington and USS Saratoga ( ).
Tandem props could have also been used for greater speed (at the expense of noise) like with US Albacore and possibly with Soviet Victor III though i've also read Victor III didn't have counterrotating props, so in that case it might've been due to "bad" design of a larger single prop causing more cavitation.
the web version google map shows clearer view of these two subs
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Nothing but internet rumor I know where you get that number Tiananmen achievement I suppose
Here what captain Jimmy Hendrix said He equate 93B to Los Angeles class
Here is what we know the propeller is of 7 blade with large area and thick, We know that all the rotating and source of noise is now located at the raft isolating it from the hull. We also know that the propeller is electrically driven meaning there is no more transmission gear eliminating large source of noise So the noise should correspond to 3rd generation submarine
nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-the-us-navy-should-fear-chinas-new-093b-nuclear-attack-16741
Is China’s new Type 093B nuclear-powered attack submarine on par with the U.S. Navy’s Improved Los Angeles-class boats?At least some U.S. naval analysts believe so and contend that the introduction of the new People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) submarines is an indication of just how quickly Beijing is catching up to the West.“The 93B is not to be confused with the 93. It is a transition platform between the 93 and the forthcoming 95,” said Jerry Hendrix, director of the Defense Strategies and Assessments Program at the Center for a New American Security—who is also a former U.S. Navy Captain. “It is quieter and it has a new assortment of weapons to include cruise missiles and a vertical launch capability. The 93B is analogous to our LA improved in quietness and their appearance demonstrates that China is learning quickly about how to build a modern fast attack boat.”Other sources were not convinced that Beijing could have made such enormous technological strides so quickly—but they noted that the topic of Chinese undersea warfare capability is very classified. Open source analysis is often extremely difficult, if not impossible. “Regarding the question on the Type 093B, I really don’t know, anything is possible I suppose, but I doubt it,” said retired Rear Adm. Mike McDevitt, now an analyst at CNA’s Center for Naval Analyses. “I have no doubt that the PLAN has ambitions to at least achieve that level of capability and quietness.”
Yet i get hull number confirm exactly my notes i think for new also only thing 093A is the 413 almost sure and in more 2 news in construction on GE, worck exactly for number with list very recent in more.
I have yet see this site he is reliable all it takes is doing the right research with the good mandarin
093基本型只有2艘（407、408），后面是4艘094（409、410、411、412），再后面才是093B（413、414、415、416、417、418）
095的舷号应该会从419开始
How do this square with the fact that we're also seeing at least one 093A - the one with flared base but without VLS?
Hyperwarp
Captain
If the 093B comes even close to the 688i, that is one hell of an achievement. 688i is a formidable SSN. This would also mean all those ONI charts are partially BS.
The 095 very least should have a shrouded propeller and retractable hydroplanes, which the 093B does not have. That alone should shed a decibel or two at certain speeds.
So did the ONI confuse the 095 with early testing of 093B? I mean this was 1st published in 2009!
095 probably just ended design phase and just started cutting steel at that time. LA 688 like quietening would put the 093B in the middle of the yellow. Project 971U/971M, 688i would be in the orange while Seawolf/Virginia, Astute, Yasen would be in the red.
