That would be quite optimistic because Yasen-M is just so much wider than 093B (13m beam vs 9m beam for inner hull)
I think late LA class is probably more reasonable.
09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread
- Thread starter SinoSoldier
- Start date
I think late LA class is probably more reasonable.
The presence of the shrouded pump-jet propeller on the 093B alone is a considerable step-up in terms of silencing capabilities over the 093/As, let alone some other non-insignificant improvements (including-but-not-limited-to improved 2nd-generation reactor with natural circulation capability) to be expected on the 093B.
(It should also be noted that the Yasen/Yasen-M does not have a shrouded (pump-jet) propeller, unlike the 093B. Also, the first Yasen-M began construction all the way back in 2009, while the 093B should have begun construction no latter than 2020/2021.)
At this point of development, I think that the notion of 093B being equivalent to the late-Los Angeles is rather conservative, seeing that the 093Bs are being built in the 2020s, not the 1990s or even 2000s-2010s anymore.
It has been a long way since the first 093 or even 093A units began construction. And per my observation - If the 093B didn't fulfill the demands and requirements of the PLAN for subsurface naval warfare that is to be anticipated in the coming years and decades, then the PLAN would never approve the construction of at least 8x 093B SSNs in less than 3 years - All while having the 1st next-generation (i.e 095) SSN's boat already under construction within only a couple years at most after the 1st 093B boat was launched in May 2022.
Such inference of mine is also based on the recent Guancha Trio podcast on China's subsurface fleet, bringing over from the 095 SSN's discussion.
Therefore, while his claim/assertion of the 093B being equivalent to the early-Virginia can be rather (if not very) optimistic, I'd say that somewhere in between late-Los Angeles and early-Virginia while approaching/closing on the latter would be more accurate/appropriate.
Last edited:
I've never seen any credible indication that 093 would not be wide enough to fit as much quieting systems it needs.
Some 093A (sometimes erroneously id as 093B) were speculated to be about contemporary to LA 688i. But the actual 093B (I.e. with pump jet, VLS etc.) is 2020s era rather than 2000s-2010.
If we're discussing the latter, 688i shouldn't come close to it. Although late LA may be a contemporary of the improved 093A.
and where do you get your info from? How did you arrive to the theory that Late LA may be a contemporary of improved 093A?
From various reports on this thread.
And also given that both countries have a similar level precision tooling and quieting technology, while these two subs were rolled out in a roughly overlapping timeframe. We really don't have much better estimates to go on.
"Contemporary" seems to be rather vague term when comparing SSN qualities. Yasen M indeed was laid down in 2009, but it was commissioned only in 2021, just 6 months before second boat of the class. . Astute started construction in 2001,, Suffren in 2007, Virginia even in 1999. They are all contemporary classes, still being built. Does it mean that Yasen-M is more advanced than the rest? No.
What reports? Can you specify. If you speak so confidently of this assessment, who are you using as the basis of this confidence?
Overall I agree with this line of argument albeit with a couple of caveats:
- the significance of the shrouded propeller or pump jet, imo may be slightly overexaggerated
- imo much more important in terms of assessing the acoustic silencing of 09IIIB (and 09IIIA series before it) are the internals, as you correctly mention, which includes but is not limited to only a potential improvement in reactor/primary drivetrain. Furthermore, refinements of precision industry and miniaturization of subsystems overall between 09III to 09IIIB are likely to have benefitted the various 09III variants up to this point as well.
- there is a possibility that across the 09III family of SSNs (i.e.: 09III, 09IIIA family, 09IIIB now) that its overall pressure hull geometry might have changed slightly in a manner that might have provided it with more internal pressure hull volume. For example, the overall pressure hull diameter and the overall external hull diameter would not have changed across the 09III variants -- however it is possible that between 09III to 09IIIA and 09IIIB, that the pressure hull may have evolved from one which is more "tapered" on the bow and aft (i.e.: maximum pressure hull diameter is limited to only the central part of the boat's length), to one which is more "regular/smooth" (i.e.: maximum pressure hull diameter extends a bit more outwards to the bow and aft, which would have the effect of increasing hull volume within the pressure hull but not overall external hull diameter or size). Of course, such a modification would be not unsubstantial, however it is still very much far less than having a whole new submarine (e.g.: a whole new pressure hull with a larger maximum diameter overall)
- acoustic silencing is related to speed -- based on observations and some conversations I've been fortunate enough to have with some people, my guess is that 09IIIA (of early 2010s technology, remember) is about 971I/U and near 688i in silencing, so the idea of 09IIIB (of early 2020s technology) exceeding that to be somewhere between 688i and VA is not entirely out of the question. HOWEVER, acoustic silencing is not uniform, that is to say, the ability to retain a set degree of acoustic silencing is more difficult at higher speeds than lower speeds (for obvious reasons) -- so even if we play around with the idea of 09IIIB having acoustic silencing that approaches that of a VA, that hypothetical idea should be automatically done to acknowledge it is probably not true for all speed regimes.
(As an aside, one of the many areas of capability gain I expect for 09V relative to 09IIIB, is that I expect 09V will be able to have more comprehensive acoustic silencing across all speed regimes including higher speed regimes, relative to what 09IIIB presently may be able to achieve)
Btw, it’s important to note that even if 093B is at about the same level in stealth from internals as the last of LA class, it would already be quite impressive since it’s a narrower sub than LA & Virginia class.
now, if we add in the fact that it is likely quieter than LA class at higher speed due to having pumpjet propulsions & also able to still do natural circulation at higher speed (assuming improved reactor tech va 90s US reactor tech)
and the fact it has more VLS cells.
It also has likely more powerful sonar and computation and communication platforms due to just being newer.
it is likely a very capable submarine in action.
and since they are building it in high numbers, that is also a quality of its own.
so I am not putting down 093B. It will significantly affect underwater balance of power. I just think there is still real limitations on how you would use it.
now, if we add in the fact that it is likely quieter than LA class at higher speed due to having pumpjet propulsions & also able to still do natural circulation at higher speed (assuming improved reactor tech va 90s US reactor tech)
and the fact it has more VLS cells.
It also has likely more powerful sonar and computation and communication platforms due to just being newer.
it is likely a very capable submarine in action.
and since they are building it in high numbers, that is also a quality of its own.
so I am not putting down 093B. It will significantly affect underwater balance of power. I just think there is still real limitations on how you would use it.
It has been discussed to death approximately where the sub noise levels are on this thread. Especially before the 093B dropped.
Sure I can dig up some page numbers for you later. But how about you first answer the question you have been avoiding in the start? Since I was the one that started asking first.
I asked you:
You're saying that the designers would deliberately somehow fuck up the dimensions of the sub so that it can't fit the quieting materials it's supposed to fit. That's an extraordinary claim.
Has an engineer that worked on these projects ever commented on this???
It really stretches my belief that they would make a whole design and only after building multiple realize they need to fit more internals in it.