09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
Just to be sure how weird would be to navigate a big 20 meter tall submarine who by definition would navigate blind in a river where sediment banks just move from one place to another, this is close to the coast where the Yangtze is suppose to have 40 meters, you can see the hazards everywhere.

1727453517396.png
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
So China is going to dredge 1000 km of river EVERY YEAR from Wuhan to the Sea so their newly built expensive HUGE nuclear submarines navigate safely the 1000 Km distance instead of IDK "built the submarine in a drydock or whatever close to the sea"

View attachment 136530
These hazards form underwater every year, that is in the middle of the river where is suppose to be deeper, now imagine a nuclear submarine who weight 17,000 tons hitting one of those at 20-40 knots loaded with the 12 more precious weapons that a country can have.

If he keeps it up I’m gonna add him to the which happens first poll.

 

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
I think part of the issue is that these people end up having influence on policy wether on purpose or not, which means their bad faith actions can have very real consequences.
It's a self-reinforcing problem.

A. Tom Shugart is incentivized not to contradict DoD personnel because it might piss off some of his contacts.
B. DoD is incentivized to rely on Tom Shugart and give him gigs because he is a subject-matter expert who toes the line.

This creates a negative feedback loop.

In this particular instance, the problem is, that a mini nuclear submarine sinking in this location is indeed a possible, even if extremely unlikely. The circumstantial "evidence" means that you can construct a plausible explanation. Of course, any good scientist/investigator/analyst would realize that the "evidence" is completely inconclusive and that dozens of other perfectly innocuous possibilities exist that would explain the presence of cranes, workers, extra activity, etc.

However, the article has been written, the DoD official already made the statement, and a critical mass of both the audience and the experts has been formed where they are essentially "forced" to stick with the story. The most likely outcomes now is either,

A. Tom Shugart and other experts/DOD slowly walk back their claims over the next few days/weeks/months, at which point nobody will see the retraction and for sure, nobody will care.
B. The story is allowed to keep circulating until it reaches a natural death. Many months and years in the future the WSJ article and twitter threads become common citations of why China's Navy is X, Y, or Z.

Just like with H.I. Sutton, I think it's wrong to simply dismiss Shugart from now on. His reputation is definitely hit, but he has produced good work in the past, and will likely produce more good work in the future. I'll just be more scrutinous when browsing his Tweets and articles in the future.

To quote Stannis Baratheon, "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Eachs hould have its own reward."
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's a self-reinforcing problem.

A. Tom Shugart is incentivized not to contradict DoD personnel because it might piss off some of his contacts.
B. DoD is incentivized to rely on Tom Shugart and give him gigs because he is a subject-matter expert who toes the line.

This creates a negative feedback loop.

In this particular instance, the problem is, that a mini nuclear submarine sinking in this location is indeed a possible, even if extremely unlikely. The circumstantial "evidence" means that you can construct a plausible explanation. Of course, any good scientist/investigator/analyst would realize that the "evidence" is completely inconclusive and that dozens of other perfectly innocuous possibilities exist that would explain the presence of cranes, workers, extra activity, etc.

However, the article has been written, the DoD official already made the statement, and a critical mass of both the audience and the experts has been formed where they are essentially "forced" to stick with the story. The most likely outcomes now is either,

A. Tom Shugart and other experts/DOD slowly walk back their claims over the next few days/weeks/months, at which point nobody will see the retraction and for sure, nobody will care.
B. The story is allowed to keep circulating until it reaches a natural death. Many months and years in the future the WSJ article and twitter threads become common citations of why China's Navy is X, Y, or Z.

Just like with H.I. Sutton, I think it's wrong to simply dismiss Shugart from now on. His reputation is definitely hit, but he has produced good work in the past, and will likely produce more good work in the future. I'll just be more scrutinous when browsing his Tweets and articles in the future.

To quote Stannis Baratheon, "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Eachs hould have its own reward."
Nobody officially from DoD has come forward to support this story, the article is just him and "unnamed" source from the DoD and you know what "unname" means? Is bullshit, is all made up.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
It's a self-reinforcing problem.

A. Tom Shugart is incentivized not to contradict DoD personnel because it might piss off some of his contacts.
B. DoD is incentivized to rely on Tom Shugart and give him gigs because he is a subject-matter expert who toes the line.

This creates a negative feedback loop.

In this particular instance, the problem is, that a mini nuclear submarine sinking in this location is indeed a possible, even if extremely unlikely. The circumstantial "evidence" means that you can construct a plausible explanation. Of course, any good scientist/investigator/analyst would realize that the "evidence" is completely inconclusive and that dozens of other perfectly innocuous possibilities exist that would explain the presence of cranes, workers, extra activity, etc.

However, the article has been written, the DoD official already made the statement, and a critical mass of both the audience and the experts has been formed where they are essentially "forced" to stick with the story. The most likely outcomes now is either,

A. Tom Shugart and other experts/DOD slowly walk back their claims over the next few days/weeks/months, at which point nobody will see the retraction and for sure, nobody will care.
B. The story is allowed to keep circulating until it reaches a natural death. Many months and years in the future the WSJ article and twitter threads become common citations of why China's Navy is X, Y, or Z.

Just like with H.I. Sutton, I think it's wrong to simply dismiss Shugart from now on. His reputation is definitely hit, but he has produced good work in the past, and will likely produce more good work in the future. I'll just be more scrutinous when browsing his Tweets and articles in the future.

To quote Stannis Baratheon, "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Eachs hould have its own reward."

He’ll walk it back when Xavier accepts that there are water proof doors on Type 052D and I’ve been waiting for that for I think two years now.
 

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
Nobody officially from DoD has come forward to support this story, the article is just him and "unnamed" source from the DoD and you know what "unname" means? Is bullshit, is all made up.
I've no doubt that a random DoD official did make a quote. Maybe even over a game of League of Legends.

I can also be quoted as a "unnamed US government official" if Global Times ever wants to cite me for something.
 

Alfa_Particle

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's a self-reinforcing problem.
This creates a negative feedback loop.

Sorry to be that guy but it has been drilled in my brain during my biology classes that a "negative feedback loop" works to cancel out the stimulus. That's how your body maintains homeostasis. A self-reinforcing problem would be a positive feedback loop.

Just had to point that out.
 
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