09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[coolieno99]

USNI thinks the 093s are fairly noisy, but they didn't rate them against US subs, so I'm not sure how they stack up. In any case, USN doesn't seem to be all that concerned about detecting those SSNs.

One should never tell the opposing force how noisy their subs are. Before the John Walker spy scandal, the Soviets didn't know their subs were noisy. After the spy scandal the Soviets realized their sub were too noisy, and began to make quieter subs.

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[Brumby]

At the same time I haven't seen the USNI update their noise estimates while we've been hearing from China that they've improved noise performance with each hull. Hard to say where they're at with all this right now though.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

One should never tell the opposing force how noisy their subs are. Before the John Walker spy scandal, the Soviets didn't know their subs were noisy. After the spy scandal the Soviets realized their sub were too noisy, and began to make quieter subs.

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Generally speaking Secrets are kept more for at home then abroad. The PLA knows full well there subs are loud, the Russians have a fair Idea of how loud there boats are to. What Walker Gave the Russians was not how loud there boats were but how good the USN was at listening for them. If you know what the Enemy is listening for under the Waters you know where he will be and how to deceive him. Graphs like the one above are not properly scaled they lack specifics in favor of generalities and that is intentional. It says We Hear you and that's it.

 

[Blackstone]

One should never tell the opposing force how noisy their subs are. Before the John Walker spy scandal, the Soviets didn't know their subs were noisy. After the spy scandal the Soviets realized their sub were too noisy, and began to make quieter subs.

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The US Congress passed a law directing the Pentagon to issue annual reports on the PLAx, so the non-classified information is out there for all to see. Also, China is pretty methodical about their military development, so it shouldn't be a surprise to them their subs are relatively noisy.

 

[Blackstone]

Just refer to the 2014 RIMPAC uninvited guest incident. It was considered impolite but that was as far as the matter went. China's defence was that it operated in international waters. There is a saying "You can't have the cake and eat it"

China breached no international laws to be sure, but crashing a party where you're an honored guest is bad form. Yes, we all think China was sending a message, and the entire RIMPAC gathering heard it loud and clear.

 

[latenlazy]

Just refer to the 2014 RIMPAC uninvited guest incident. It was considered impolite but that was as far as the matter went. China's defence was that it operated in international waters. There is a saying "You can't have the cake and eat it"

Well, not trying to drawing a moral equivalence here. Just pointing out that we might've responded similarly if the circumstances were reversed. (After all, the P-8 wasn't flying around in the middle of a publicly announced exercise, or any exercise that we know of for that matter).

 

[Insignius]

I always wonder where the USNI gets the data for the 095, even before it entered service.

At the time this graph was made, the 093 wasnt in service as well.

 

[Brumby]

Well, not trying to drawing a moral equivalence here. Just pointing out that we might've responded similarly if the circumstances were reversed. (After all, the P-8 wasn't flying around in the middle of a publicly announced exercise, or any exercise that we know of for that matter).

If I understood you correctly, the issue was the intrusiveness of surveillance and not the conditions leading to it.

 

[Skywatcher]

I always wonder where the USNI gets the data for the 095, even before it entered service.

At the time this graph was made, the 093 wasnt in service as well.

The puzzling thing about that ONI report was that the Chinese SSKs were pretty quiet, even the old Mings.

At as for that ONI SSN chart on China and Russia, it begs the question, at what speeds, depth and other ocean conditions?

Making a semi-educated guess:

A Type 093 SSN is probably pretty darn quiet, maybe even the same as an Akula, at speeds of say 10 knots per hour under water, but it'll probably be pretty darn noisy at 20-30 knots per hour (the Chinese seem to be pretty good at mounting acoustic quieting measures and machining precision parts as shown by the SSKs, but the Type 093's reactor could be a major problem since the sorry state of Chinese metallurgy in the 1990s would probably mean that the reactor parts like pump machinery probably will start to deform due to the high stress of high power requirements for a sustained 30 knot per hour speed. In that case, the degradation of reactor components would at least cause the Type 093 to become noisier over time and lead to the eventual breakdown of the machinery).

*If you can only expect your SSN to operate quietly at slow speeds of less than, say 10 knots, you're better off using that money to buy two SSKs with AIP for now and maintain a few SSNs to keep a cadre of nuclear power experienced sailors for if and even you can build fast AND quiet SSNs.

 

[Jeff Head]

Deleted duplicate.