PLAN subs could certainly be "near" world leading levels, such as the impending 095. The difference for subs is that China has been way behind historically in subs compared to other areas of military tech. BTW, you can do all the "analysis" you want, but the bottom line is that we are all outsiders here looking in and grasping at straws.
09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread
- Thread starter SinoSoldier
- Start date
Is the PLA really that much behind in sub tech compared to other areas? Behind ground forces maybe, but air force, surface combatants? If anything PLA sub tech has been more advanced compared to other areas, the conventional subs at least are probably the first combatants to reach world class level out of naval and air force systems. That the PLA was able to develop a nuclear sub in the 70's, however poorly it performed, was nothing short of a small miracle, and there were no comparable achievements in the naval or air force arena for decades to come.
I agree that we're all outsiders looking in, which makes it confusing how you're so sure that the PLAN SSNs are so far behind when what little objective data we do have suggests otherwise.
I think China has historically been behind in many areas of military technology, and it's only in the last two decades or so that advancements in certain domains of products began to emerge (which of course reflects advancements in the industry and technology underpinning those products).
However, prior to those last two decades of advancement I would argue that China's technological advancement across multiple domains were all about equally "behind" compared to other nations and it's hard to say if submarines or nuclear submarines were substantially "more" behind than how behind the other domains already were.
But I agree, speculating about nuclear submarine acoustic stealth levels and especially trying to compare them on some kind of detailed basis is very difficult to do. Nuclear submarines are among the most closely guarded secrets of military forces which have them, for good reason.
Let's just say that I'm about as "so sure" that the PLAN SSNs WERE so far behind as you are "so sure" that the PLAN SSNs ARE world class. Again, I think the 093B and 095 represent parts of the PLAN sub development timeline where Chinese naval technology has been accelerating dramatically (i.e. post 2000), and so it is reasonable to think that they are skipping generations and rapidly catching up to world class (by which I mean Seawolf and Virginia). But there is little doubt IMO that the 091 and 093 started from very low tech levels, and so to assume based on argumentation alone that the 093 was able to essentially skip 3 generations of sub tech in one go is to me utterly preposterous and smacks of fanboyistic wishful thinking. Also, I don't agree at all that conventional subs were the first combatants to reach world class level, nor that quiet conventional subs also automatically lead to quite nuclear subs. Multiple platforms all introduced around the middle of the 2000's were all approaching world class standards, including the Type 054A, J-10A, and J-11B. Nor do I find it "miraculous" that the PLAN was able to develop a nuclear submarine in the 1970s given that the US first developed one in the 1950s. The problem is that throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s China's technological level remained relatively stagnant while the US was fighting the Cold War and was undoubtedly climbing the tech tree far faster than China was, so I'm sure the tech gap actually widened during this time. It wasn't until China got rich (relatively) towards the end of the 90s did it begin to develop the science and tech base needed to start catching up to the US, which it has been doing only in the last 10-15 years or so.
093 is different of 093A improved, more long a little and after exist 093B a 093A with VLS ...so 093A and 093B more silencious than a 093
BTW a Victor III is less silencious than a 093.
But yes a Victor III have same radiated noise than a Permit 125 - 130 dBs
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kwaigonegin
Colonel
no offense gents but this back and forth is just semantics and nationalistic chest thumping. Why does it matter if PLAN subs are world class or approaching world class w/o actually discussing the details and specifics of such speculation?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's perfectly fine to speculate on certain things every once in a while even just for the sake of ' fun' however when it becomes prolonged and dragged on with back and forth arguments it becomes very tedious.
I can say my bathtub is quieter than a Virginia class but until I can back it up with facts or at least semi reliable data it is a meaningless argument.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's perfectly fine to speculate on certain things every once in a while even just for the sake of ' fun' however when it becomes prolonged and dragged on with back and forth arguments it becomes very tedious.
I can say my bathtub is quieter than a Virginia class but until I can back it up with facts or at least semi reliable data it is a meaningless argument.
There is a report on the designer that worked on sub silencing technologies. In it the designer talked about finding suitable soft by t with high heat and pressure tolerant materials to connect the pipes, and rafts to be placed underneath machineries to reduce vibrations transmitted to the hull. Chinese subs aren't as far behind in tech as some of you think
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Can you be more specific because I can't connect the dot what you mean by finding suitable soft by t?
Blackstone
Brigadier
I doubt quieting technology in new/updated PLAN nuclear submarines comes close to Western SSN/SSBNs. Should Pentagon officials release an updated version of their 2009 submarine quietness chart, and if that shows dramatic improvement in Chinese nuclear submarine quieting technology, then I'll revise my outlook.