09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

zaphd

New Member
Registered Member
I think you confuse the terminology of static pressure and I do to. The static pressure above the submarine should be called potential energy
It is eliminated since at T1, T2 it is at the same height. So the height of the column doesn't come into picture here. I use Bernouli to simplify the argument I am aware actually the blade is more like Aerofoil but it is the same process

What they meant here is the static pressure at point of contact inside the control volume. Assuming you can shrink yourself small enough and can be inside the control volume. That is the pressure that you see or feel if the propeller is accelerated

P1-P2 is the unknown variable here and.the speed is the known variable Just to show that rotaion create vacuum therefore it function as vacuum pump!

It is terminology because the -1/2 RhoV2 is called velocity pressure and it is negative


As to Tom Clancy thing if that is the case why nation spend billion in research and make all effort to hide the propeller and instituted Cocom to prevent sale of CNC. Russia use the skull drudgery to get the CNC machine? When to avoid cavitation all you have to do is dive deeper
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Thanks for the vid it was pretty good.

In my example I discarded the potential energy part, because I assumed the water entering the propeller and at the propeller is at roughly the same depth. I'm not sure what the potential part (rhogh) is called, but it is not the static pressure. In the equation you gave in the picture, and which I used in my example, P1 and P2 are the so called static pressures. And 0.5rhoVsq is dynamic, or velocity, pressure like you said.

If you are still unconvinced, read
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where you will see it is indeed P which is the static pressure. Or pick up a physics textbook.

And if you don't understand why static pressure grows with depth see
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especially the equation p-p0=rho*g*h.

And I agree with you that propeller/pumpjet design is very important and it allows you to go faster without increasing depth, and fast submarines would likely still be limited by their cavitation speed even at their max operational depth if it weren't for carefully designed and very expensive propellers or pumpjets.
 

zaphd

New Member
Registered Member
What they meant here is the static pressure at point of contact inside the control volume. Assuming you can shrink yourself small enough and can be inside the control volume. That is the pressure that you see or feel if the propeller is accelerated

P1-P2 is the unknown variable here and.the speed is the known variable Just to show that rotaion create vacuum therefore it function as vacuum pump!

It is terminology because the -1/2 RhoV2 is called velocity pressure and it is negative
First of all P1-P2 doesn't matter. What matters is that the static pressure at the most cavitation prone part of the propeller, which I called P2, is greater than the vapor pressure of water. This is what the video you posted said.

The other thing is that according to this image you posted yourself
bernoul.gif
When the water moves around the propeller at an increased speed, it reduces the internal pressure of the water, which can cause cavitation. Notice P2 <P1, thats what the picture says.

Admittedly this is a simplification like we've both said. In my example, I'm not going into the minutiae of how bubbles form, but thinking of the propeller as a system that has an input of water at a speed of V1=0 and pressure P1=rho*g*depth+P_atmosphere, and an output of an accelerated jet of water.

Inside the propeller "system" there exists a maximum water speed, which I called V2. It depends on propeller design and rpm. At that point, according to Bernoulli, there is the lowest static pressure P2, which must not be below P_vaporpressure for cavitation not to occur.

Now if we plug in these values into the formula in the picture above you gave and additionally substitute h1=h2, because there are no height changes, and do some algebra we get:
V2=sqrt (2g*depth+2P_atm/rho-2P_vaporpressure/rho)
Which clearly is a function of depth, rest of the stuff on the right is constant.

Now if you want to be super pedantic, technically the input water speed V1 is the speed of the sub which depends on V2. The equation would be a lot messier, but I left it at 0 for simplicity. The equation now shows the trend how fast a sub at a standstill can rev its propeller without cavitation in various depths. This is assuming V2 is proportional to propeller rpm, which is imho a fair estimate to the first order.

Hendrik, I appreceate your criticisms of my approach, but could you specify what exact things you think the individual variables in Bernoulli's equation describe when applied to a ship's propeller.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Thanks for the vid it was pretty good.

In my example I discarded the potential energy part, because I assumed the water entering the propeller and at the propeller is at roughly the same depth. I'm not sure what the potential part (rhogh) is called, but it is not the static pressure. In the equation you gave in the picture, and which I used in my example, P1 and P2 are the so called static pressures. And 0.5rhoVsq is dynamic, or velocity, pressure like you said.

If you are still unconvinced, read
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
where you will see it is indeed P which is the static pressure. Or pick up a physics textbook.

And if you don't understand why static pressure grows with depth see
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
especially the equation p-p0=rho*g*h.

And I agree with you that propeller/pumpjet design is very important and it allows you to go faster without increasing depth, and fast submarines would likely still be limited by their cavitation speed even at their max operational depth if it weren't for carefully designed and very expensive propellers or pumpjets.

Man I think you should go back to basic equation in grade 9 to understand that in equation the left side is unknown variable and the right side is known variable
I understand the static pressure but where is in the equation there is term h ?
If the term P1 and P2 confused you why don't you called it deltaP=1/2rhoVsq So there no h here!
What the equation said is the more velocity you get the more vacuum you created! that's it ! Or in reverse for a KNOWN vacuum I can find the velocity! One variable must be known to solve the equation
 
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zaphd

New Member
Registered Member
Man I think you should go back to basic equation in grade 9 to understand that in equation the left side is unknown variable and the right side is known variable
I understand the static pressure but where is in the equation there is term h ?
If the term P1 and P2 confused you why don't you called it deltaP=1/2rhoVsq So there no h here!
What the equation said is the more velocity you get the more vacuum you created! that's it ! Or in reverse for a KNOWN vacuum I can find the velocity! One variable must be known to solve the equation
That video you linked said it. Delta P doesnt matter, but absolute pressure. Thus you are omitting P1 from the equation and drawing an incorrect conclusion. I agree that this problem is roughly 9th grade algebra, maybe 11th grade physics. There is nothing I can learn from this discussion so I'm done. Lets get back to chinese subs.
 

jobjed

Captain
Man I think you should go back to basic equation in grade 9 to understand that in equation the left side is unknown variable and the right side is known variable
I understand the static pressure but where is in the equation there is term h ?
If the term P1 and P2 confused you why don't you called it deltaP=1/2rhoVsq So there no h here!
What the equation said is the more velocity you get the more vacuum you created! that's it ! Or in reverse for a KNOWN vacuum I can find the velocity! One variable must be known to solve the equation

I think Zaphd is saying that propellers can turn faster at greater depths without causing cavitation. This is because there is more pressure at greater depths that help prevent the formation of bubbles.

If we start with Bernoulli's equation to model the effects, P1 + f(v1) = P2 + f(v2) where P1 = water pressure at a certain depth, P2 = pressure of saturated liquid (constant value along an isotherm), v1 = 0 because the propeller isn't moving initially, v2 = maximum velocity allowed to ensure bubbles do not form, and f(v) = (1/2)*(mv^2). Eliminating f(v1) because v1 = 0 gives P1 = P2 + f(v2). Since P2 is a constant, we can say that P1 = f(v2) + k, which can be rearranged into the form v2 = g(P1) + C. Thus, v2 is solely a function of P1, which is the water pressure at a certain depth. If P1 increases, v2 also increases. As the submarine dives deeper, the water pressure, or P1, increases. As P1 increases, v2 also increases, which is the maximum allowed velocity, or the speed at which the propeller is allowed to spin. So, as the submarine dives deeper, the water pressure increases, and the speed at which the propellers spin also increases.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I think Zaphd is saying that propellers can turn faster at greater depths without causing cavitation. This is because there is more pressure at greater depths that help prevent the formation of bubbles.

If we start with Bernoulli's equation to model the effects, P1 + f(v1) = P2 + f(v2) where P1 = water pressure at a certain depth, P2 = pressure of saturated liquid (constant value along an isotherm), v1 = 0 because the propeller isn't moving initially, v2 = maximum velocity allowed to ensure bubbles do not form, and f(v) = (1/2)*(mv^2). Eliminating f(v1) because v1 = 0 gives P1 = P2 + f(v2). Since P2 is a constant, we can say that P1 = f(v2) + k, which can be rearranged into the form v2 = g(P1) + C. Thus, v2 is solely a function of P1, which is the water pressure at a certain depth. If P1 increases, v2 also increases. As the submarine dives deeper, the water pressure, or P1, increases. As P1 increases, v2 also increases, which is the maximum allowed velocity, or the speed at which the propeller is allowed to spin. So, as the submarine dives deeper, the water pressure increases, and the speed at which the propellers spin also increases.

That is not the case did you read my previous post Why spend billion of dollar in research to find perfect propeller when you can just easily dive to eliminate cavitation
Increasing the propeller speed create more cavitatioM . READ THE US NAVY OFFICER WHO SAID CAVITATION DEPEND ON SPEED

It is very easy to debunk this static pressure thing
Now do this Separate P1 into the component say p1+ Pwc where Pwc is pressure of water column above the submarine
Now do the subtraction
P1-P2=(p1+Pwc)-(p2+Pwc)=p1-p2 So here you go the pressure of water column is GONE What you have is delta p

He confused static pressure at the control volume with definition of static head. It is just nomenclature to differentiate it from velocity created pressure(head)
It doesn't mean pressure of water column above the propeller

It depend in close circuit pipe yes you have to include the static height Because the control volume include it
It is difficult to grasp the idea of control volume because conservation of energy is take at control volume only!
 
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Quickie

Colonel
Look at this equation since h1=h2 the potential energy cancelled out Now rearranging the equation
P1-P2=1/2Rho(V1sq-V2sq) P1-P2 is the one that cause the cavitation is depend only on the speed V1.V2 there is no potential energy here
1 and 2 refer to 2 different time

bernoul.gif

Lol, I don't have much free time now to get into such long winded complicated discussion.

Just want to comment that the 1 and 2 labels refer to the same time, not different times as you've claimed. The above equation describes the flow conditions at some random instant.

With the equation, you can even calculate the value of V2 (a parameter which would also be relevant in the propeller example? ) at which cavitation would occur, given P2 is at the pressure at which cavitation will occur at some given temperature of the fluid.

I've also noticed mistakes made in some of the assumptions in the ongoing discussions but don't have the time to comment on them now.
 

dingyibvs

Junior Member
So, with this new information, am I right in saying that the best estimate for the 093/A has just gone from Victor III level to the improved LA level? Kinda shows you how little we really know about Chinese SSNs, huh? Then again, ONI did come up with 093 noise estimates quite a few years before it was even launched, so I guess it was foolish to put any credence in it in the first place, let alone using it to estimate the 093A's noise level.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
So, with this new information, am I right in saying that the best estimate for the 093/A has just gone from Victor III level to the improved LA level? Kinda shows you how little we really know about Chinese SSNs, huh? Then again, ONI did come up with 093 noise estimates quite a few years before it was even launched, so I guess it was foolish to put any credence in it in the first place, let alone using it to estimate the 093A's noise level.
China's second generation nuke sub skipped a few generations and is now somehow "improved LA" level??? That is some serious optimism right there. I don't think so.

If 093 could beat Permit and 093B could beat Sturgeon that would already be an optimistic scenario IMO; such an improvement curve already represents some degree of generational skipping. If the 095 can beat improved LA, that would again represent additional generational skipping.
 

dingyibvs

Junior Member
China's second generation nuke sub skipped a few generations and is now somehow "improved LA" level??? That is some serious optimism right there. I don't think so.

If 093 could beat Permit and 093B could beat Sturgeon that would already be an optimistic scenario IMO; such an improvement curve already represents some degree of generational skipping. If the 095 can beat improved LA, that would again represent additional generational skipping.

I don't pretend to be an expert in submarines, I'm just going by totoro's analysis 2 pages ago. Care to refute his arguments? Surface combatants are now near world leading levels, why not subsurface combatants?
 
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