075 LHD thread

[Daniel707]

Some big shrimps say two in construction I heard. But I don't believe it. It is a complete new class of ship they have 0 experience in operating. Not even a sample like the carrier to study. It is way too big a risk going off a design and build two without playing around with a first generation and debug and optimise.

They did it when building Type 055 Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser.

The #1 and #2 Type 055 Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser started construction almost in the same time in Jiangnan Shipyard.
Even when the #1 not launched yet, They started The #3 and #4 started construction in another Shipyard (Dalian Shipyard)


And that is their first time, to Build a 12,800 Tonnes Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser (The Largest Modern warships in Asia)
It's a complete new class and a very capable modern warship.
But they start building 4 unit almost simultaneously in 2 shipyards, even when the #1 not launched yet.


And I believe, Building Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser (Type 055 12,800 Tonnes) is much more complicated and harder, with their complicated and sophisticated combat system than build a 40,000 Tonnes LHA.

Although, I don't say building a 40,000 Tonnes LHA is easy, it's also hard for sure.
What I know, it's only US today that have and operate LHA in that size.

And soon in the near time, only China and US together will operate 40,000 Tonnes LHA.
Who knows, maybe we will see China's and US's LHA exercise together in the future


nb: Big Shrimps and Henry.K is a very credible source for China's Naval updates and news.
Most info they tell, become true.

Most members also don't believe when Big Shrimps and Henry.K tell, China will build 4 unit Type 055 almost in the same time (First Batch).
But when the modules photos come out a couple years later, most agree that's for real

 

[Lethe]

One is enough for training and debugging of design. If it turns out to be a lemon, you will only have one not two.

It is not going to be a 'lemon'. Even if the vessels turn out to have significant limitations and first-generation teething issues, they will still offer useful capabilities that PLAN previously did not have.

Recall the old naval rule-of-thumb: one is none, and two is one. By building two ships, PLAN is likely to be able to deploy one at short notice if required. Building only one vessel essentially relegates the platform to a prototype/training/show-the-flag role and pushes back the attainment of a real operational capability by several years -- that too carries risks.

No project gate keeper will allow unmitigated high risk items through, especially in unknown areas.

Indications are that PLAN assesses things differently than you do.

 

[Blitzo]

One is enough for training and debugging of design. If it turns out to be a lemon, you will only have one not two.

Back in the early 00s, new destroyers were build in twos because at least they had destroyer experience. In the case of LHDs it is like adding parts of 071 with 016 with a whole bunch of new sub systems and undefined procedures. Building two increase your risk by quite a bit.

No project gate keeper will allow unmitigated high risk items through, especially in unknown areas.

If they really are building two such ships at the same time, it could be an indication that they are confident in the success of the ships and confident of the requirements and doctrine that they want to develop.

I.e.: it is a reflection not only of the confidence in their shipbuilding industry, but also in the navy's ability to dictate sensible requirements and ability to man those ships.


The biggest reason for skepticism is because the Navy has never operated an LHD or LHA before, meaning we would think would want to develop relevant procedures, subsystems and competencies first before going more all in.

But IMO, the fact that 071 LPDs have been in operation for this long, as well as CV-16 which has a significant helicopter aviation component, means that putting them together, it is not hard to believe that they could've developed many of the core competencies and decided on more solid requirements, despite not having operated an LHD or LHA before.
After all, many commentators used to say that it would be a good idea for China to operate an LHD or LHA before operating a carrier, given the latter has many commonalities with the former but is more complex in many ways. Therefore, having operated a carrier for going on five years now, is it hard to believe that they could have derived significant experience to use it to feed into their own requirements and procedures for LHD/LHA type ships which are not only less complex than operating a fixed wing carrier, but also have significant commonalities with LPD type ships which China has built and operated for many years?

 

[PiSigma]

They did it when building Type 055 Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser.

The #1 and #2 Type 055 Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser started construction almost in the same time in Jiangnan Shipyard.
Even when the #1 not launched yet, They started The #3 and #4 started construction in another Shipyard (Dalian Shipyard)


And that is their first time, to Build a 12,800 Tonnes Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser (The Largest Modern warships in Asia)
It's a complete new class and a very capable modern warship.
But they start building 4 unit almost simultaneously in 2 shipyards, even when the #1 not launched yet.


And I believe, Building Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser (Type 055 12,800 Tonnes) is much more complicated and harder, with their complicated and sophisticated combat system than build a 40,000 Tonnes LHA.

Although, I don't say building a 40,000 Tonnes LHA is easy, it's also hard for sure.
What I know, it's only US today that have and operate LHA in that size.

And soon in the near time, only China and US together will operate 40,000 Tonnes LHA.
Who knows, maybe we will see China's and US's LHA exercise together in the future


nb: Big Shrimps and Henry.K is a very credible source for China's Naval updates and news.
Most info they tell, become true.

Most members also don't believe when Big Shrimps and Henry.K tell, China will build 4 unit Type 055 almost in the same time (First Batch).
But when the modules photos come out a couple years later, most agree that's for real

055 is evolution of 52... Still a destroyer, nothing revolutionary about it. LHD is compleltey different. No operation experience, no design experience, no build experience.
055 they got most of all three listed.

 

[kwaigonegin]

They did it when building Type 055 Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser.

The #1 and #2 Type 055 Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser started construction almost in the same time in Jiangnan Shipyard.
Even when the #1 not launched yet, They started The #3 and #4 started construction in another Shipyard (Dalian Shipyard)


And that is their first time, to Build a 12,800 Tonnes Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser (The Largest Modern warships in Asia)
It's a complete new class and a very capable modern warship.
But they start building 4 unit almost simultaneously in 2 shipyards, even when the #1 not launched yet.


And I believe, Building Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser (Type 055 12,800 Tonnes) is much more complicated and harder, with their complicated and sophisticated combat system than build a 40,000 Tonnes LHA.

Although, I don't say building a 40,000 Tonnes LHA is easy, it's also hard for sure.
What I know, it's only US today that have and operate LHA in that size.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point. Bulding the 055 is certainly NOT much harder or complicated than building a LHA. It's easier!
LHA has even more complex systems due to the aviation component.
There is nothing ground breaking or revolutionary per se in the 055.. it's just a bigger brother of 052 with some newer generation eletromics, weapons etc.

 

[Jeff Head]

They did it when building Type 055 Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser.

The #1 and #2 Type 055 Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser started construction almost in the same time in Jiangnan Shipyard.
Even when the #1 not launched yet, They started The #3 and #4 started construction in another Shipyard (Dalian Shipyard)

Most of Type 055 is a reiteration and improvement of the Type 052D. Bigger. More VLS cells. Newer sensor suite...but basically a larger improved DDG.

And I believe, Building Heavy Destroyer/Cruiser (Type 055 12,800 Tonnes) is much more complicated and harder, with their complicated and sophisticated combat system than build a 40,000 Tonnes LHA.

Nope...it is harder. Perhaps because of the different types of functionality, it is as difficult as a carrier.

You have well decks, large hanger decks, large flight decks. Complicated sensor suites for anti-submarine, surface naval, anti-air, air assault, amphibious assault...and the command and control of all of them. And then the spaces to house and repair all of them too.

So, a modern LHD is probably right up their with a modern CATOBAR carrier in terms of complexity. The Chinese will do it carefully and right...but they will not do it carelessly.

Time will tell...but I have always believed, since they started building San Antonio type LPDs that they would eventually build a large LHD class too.

 

[PiSigma]

I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point. Bulding the 055 is certainly NOT much harder or complicated than building a LHA. It's easier!
LHA has even more complex systems due to the aviation component.
There is nothing ground breaking or revolutionary per se in the 055.. it's just a bigger brother of 052 with some newer generation eletromics, weapons etc.

Exactly what I said.

 

[PiSigma]

Most of Type 055 is a reiteration and improvement of the Type 052D. Bigger. More VLS cells. Newer sensor suite...but basically a larger improved DDG.



Nope...it is harder. Perhaps because of the different types of functionality, it is as difficult as a carrier.

You have well decks, large hanger decks, large flight decks. Complicated sensor suites for anti-submarine, surface naval, anti-air, air assault, amphibious assault...and the command and control of all of them. And then the spaces to house and repair all of them too.

So, a modern LHD is probably right up their with a modern CATOBAR carrier in terms of complexity. The Chinese will do it carefully and right...but they will not do it carelessly.

Time will tell...but I have always believed, since they started building San Antonio type LPDs that they would eventually build a large LHD class too.

Exactly. I just don't think building two ships they have no experience designing, operating makes sense.

 

[Blitzo]

Exactly. I just don't think building two ships they have no experience designing, operating makes sense.

see my reply above, #613

 

[Blitzo]

So, a modern LHD is probably right up their with a modern CATOBAR carrier in terms of complexity. The Chinese will do it carefully and right...but they will not do it carelessly.

I think a modern LHD is not as complex as a modern CATOBAR carrier.

I think it would rather go, CATOBAR > STOBAR >> LHD/A > LPD