075 LHD thread

[tphuang]

I really wonder how you reached that conclusion. 27 knots is good enough. The statement about their noise levels is pure speculation since we don't have any data. Also, as far as I read from former naval personnel (of various countries) ship noise levels have become mostly irrelevant since active sonar became the preferred way of finding hostile subs again. The new paradigm also makes numbers and surface ships a lot more important which are, in my opinion, why we are seeing more 054s getting built.

Yes, they are building a lot more because they need more numbers for a battle of attrition. They need every sensors and launch platform they can get their hands on. Generally, surface combatants (aside from specialized ones like SURTASS) are not ideal for searching modern SSNs by themselves.

It was Shilao's podcast that said 054A itself is not really suitable for ASW missions. When it lowers TAS, it can only go about 10 knots. That's just not going to chase down any modern submarines. They were specific in saying that China needs as many Z20s as possible (I presume that would include MPAs also)

The low aviation capability of the said ships is a problem for sure but I don't think that makes them inadequate. A single helicopter is likely good enough since we are talking about 80 (soon to become 100) ships here.
I also agree with other commenters. Type 075s are far too valuable to be risked in a high-risk mission like ASW. China has only 3 of them, they are very expensive and large, are very likely to have suboptimal flight facilities for the task and are of critical importance for any contingency. I would never risk them at ASW. If the Chinese gov thinks a conflict is imminent it should increase the anemic military spending and reserve a higher portion of Chinese shipbuilding capacity for naval expansion. China can easily accommodate the construction of 4-6 dedicated heli carriers without having their construction interfere with the construction of other classes. If the Chinese gov is not doing it, it means the Chinese gov thinks a conflict is not very likely and/or helicopter carriers are a bad idea.

Note: Small carriers are usually a bad idea. Contrary to a lot of Twitter "experts"'s opinion Hyuga class is a bad way to spend money.

They are building 7 052Ds at the same time + numerous 054As + 003 + a few 039C. They also need to start building that second batch of 8 055s and 076s. Where are they going to "easily accommodate" construction of 4 to 6 dedicated helicopters carriers? Even aside from shipyard themselves, PLAN has constraints in budget and in how many people they can train onto new ships.

I'm not sure what you mean by risking 075 in "high-risk mission like ASW". They are likely going to have a large fleet East of Taiwan and south Ryukus. That fleet will have a carrier, 055s and 052Ds and be tasked with both attacking and defensive missions. The more modern ships you have in that fleet, the harder it is for the other side to penetrate your air defense or subsurface defense.

Adding a 075 in that fleet will notably decrease the risk of every ship in that fleet. Now, you have more helicopters at disposal that can search for submarines, do search and rescue and provide OTH tracking/targeting of enemy ships and missiles. PLAN would be making a mistake if they do not train for such a scenario.

 

[Blitzo]

I'm not sure what you mean by risking 075 in "high-risk mission like ASW". They are likely going to have a large fleet East of Taiwan and south Ryukus. That fleet will have a carrier, 055s and 052Ds and be tasked with both attacking and defensive missions. The more modern ships you have in that fleet, the harder it is for the other side to penetrate your air defense or subsurface defense.

Adding a 075 in that fleet will notably decrease the risk of every ship in that fleet. Now, you have more helicopters at disposal that can search for submarines, do search and rescue and provide OTH tracking/targeting of enemy ships and missiles. PLAN would be making a mistake if they do not train for such a scenario.

As mentioned by myself and others multiple times in this thread -- the reason why 075 is inappropriate as an ASW platform is because it is designed from the ground up as an amphibious assault ship, not a ASW carrier.
It's too slow, too suboptimized, and it has too many amphibious assault specific capabilities (that you don't need on a ASW carrier) to be a good ASW carrier.

The problem is that you are describing the idea of 075 operating as a ASW carrier as if it is oriented or optimized for that mission -- whereas what you're really saying is that if they were fighting a conflict and they didn't need to use 075s for their intended mission (amphibious assault/power projection), and if there was a very significant ASW threat, then they could use 075s as an ASW ship.



Can 075s operate as a ASW carrier by operating ASW helicopters, and contribute to the ASW mission?
- Yes, they technically can.
Would using 075s as a ASW carrier be the best use of its capabilities and design?
- If they don't have anything else they need 075s for and if they really are facing such a high capability foe that they need to throw everything at it, then sure, perhaps.


Or, as gloire wrote in an earlier post on the last page: "075 is bad enough for this to just not do it, unless the situation is dire, or unless the whole campaign is won(lost?) and you have nothing else to do with them in the foreseeable future."

 

[tphuang]

As mentioned by myself and others multiple times in this thread -- the reason why 075 is inappropriate as an ASW platform is because it is designed from the ground up as an amphibious assault ship, not a ASW carrier.
It's too slow, too suboptimized, and it has too many amphibious assault specific capabilities (that you don't need on a ASW carrier) to be a good ASW carrier.

The problem is that you are describing the idea of 075 operating as a ASW carrier as if it is oriented or optimized for that mission -- whereas what you're really saying is that if they were fighting a conflict and they didn't need to use 075s for their intended mission (amphibious assault/power projection), and if there was a very significant ASW threat, then they could use 075s as an ASW ship.

This is what I wrote originally
"I actually like the idea of using the helicopters for asw and sar roles rather than to just air drop marines. Put 075 east of Taiwan and it gives you a lot of additional aerial assets to assist rest of the fleet. Keep in mind that they have started to operate ka31s on there. They can help a fleet to track sea skimmers, surface warships and enemy aircraft."

I'm not saying it's optimized for that mission. But if you have a platform that can carry a bunch of helicopters, then you are going to use it.

and then I wrote
"In general, I think plan is just learning about what it can do with 075. So far, I haven't seen them operating a really large fleet on there. Once z20f production ramps up, I would expect a combination of z8, z18, z20 and ka31s on there. Depending on the mission, they could have more asw helicopter or more assault helicopter or more transport helicopter or more aew helicopter. Increasing the size of naval air wing is always a good thing.

And as time goes on, we will see more drone variants and such. We are still at a very early stage in terms of seeing how they plan to utilize 075s."

The fact that they are trialing Ka-31s/Z18F/Z18J on Type 075 should be evidence that PLAN is looking at exploring all possible roles.

Can 075s operate as a ASW carrier by operating ASW helicopters, and contribute to the ASW mission?
- Yes, they technically can.
Would using 075s as a ASW carrier be the best use of its capabilities and design?
- If they don't have anything else they need 075s for and if they really are facing such a high capability foe that they need to throw everything at it, then sure, perhaps.


Or, as gloire wrote in an earlier post on the last page: "075 is bad enough for this to just not do it, unless the situation is dire, or unless the whole campaign is won(lost?) and you have nothing else to do with them in the foreseeable future."

No, I took offense to what he said because he wants 075 to be sitting in the port rather than help out the rest of the fleet. That's quite different from what you are saying.

 

[BoraTas]

Yes, they are building a lot more because they need more numbers for a battle of attrition. They need every sensors and launch platform they can get their hands on. Generally, surface combatants (aside from specialized ones like SURTASS) are not ideal for searching modern SSNs by themselves.

It was Shilao's podcast that said 054A itself is not really suitable for ASW missions. When it lowers TAS, it can only go about 10 knots. That's just not going to chase down any modern submarines. They were specific in saying that China needs as many Z20s as possible (I presume that would include MPAs also)

They are building 7 052Ds at the same time + numerous 054As + 003 + a few 039C. They also need to start building that second batch of 8 055s and 076s. Where are they going to "easily accommodate" construction of 4 to 6 dedicated helicopters carriers? Even aside from shipyard themselves, PLAN has constraints in budget and in how many people they can train onto new ships.

I'm not sure what you mean by risking 075 in "high-risk mission like ASW". They are likely going to have a large fleet East of Taiwan and south Ryukus. That fleet will have a carrier, 055s and 052Ds and be tasked with both attacking and defensive missions. The more modern ships you have in that fleet, the harder it is for the other side to penetrate your air defense or subsurface defense.

Adding a 075 in that fleet will notably decrease the risk of every ship in that fleet. Now, you have more helicopters at disposal that can search for submarines, do search and rescue and provide OTH tracking/targeting of enemy ships and missiles. PLAN would be making a mistake if they do not train for such a scenario.

The first part is a quality versus quantity discussion. It is a long topic. For this case quantity is important because geographical coverage of ASW assets against modern subs is small. Trying to get every sensor you can get your hands on is not a good approach. You only do it if optimal solutions are not procurable in adequate numbers because of industrial constraints. Otherwise, you just procure more of the optimal solution. PLAN is definitely not trying to get its hands on every sensor it can. It is not limited by anything but budget. It seems you somehow convinced yourself that there is an urgency in the PLA. But we have zero reasons to think the Chinese government believes there is an urgency.
You listed a lot of ships but China uses a tiny fraction of its shipbuilding industry to build warships. It can easily accommodate building more warships. In fact, the industrial capacity is likely enough for 10x more. Training a few thousand more people is not a problem either. The only constraint here is budget. If China needs more ASW capability faster it can increase the PLA's budget. That increase in budget would buy more ASW capability if it gets used for buying dedicated ASW helicopter carriers rather than suboptimal 075s. Until PLA procures more than needed 075s, 075s are needed for amphibious assaults and are high-value assets themselves. Attaching them to carrier groups to do missions that other assets (dedicated ASW carrier, normal carrier) would do better is a waste of their amphibious assault capability. If you are doing that you are either compromising your amphibious assault capability or you have excess 075s. PLA having excess 075s would mean money wasn't optimally spent.
As others said it only makes sense if there is no possibility of an amphibious assault and normal ASW assets are not enough for the ongoing underwater warfare.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

I don't know why every body saying too slow or sub optimal what is that mean? It mean nothing It is not like the submarine is racing with LHD at 30 knot. . They must be stupid doing it because it will exacerbate the noise and they can easily detected! No submarine quoted speed is for transit only and in attack mode they don't go that fast or moving at all in attack mode. I don't know why amphibious landing used as ASW is inconceivable for China. They can send the ASW heli to do the job. Because in Taiwan strait contingency Japan will station missile in Miyako straits and put gauntlet on Chinese ship crossing the straits. China has to take those island and destroy the missile base You cannot do it from tha air only and has to put boot on the ground and Japan submarine will be lurking in the landing spot . So No 75 can double down as subchaser no problem with that! They can send the ASW helo from the deck and provide munition and fuel

 

[BoraTas]

I don't know why every body saying too slow or sub optimal what is that mean? It mean nothing It is not like the submarine is racing with LHD at 30 knot. . They must be stupid doing it because it will exacerbate the noise and they can easily detected! No submarine quoted speed is for transit only and in attack mode they don't go that fast or moving at all in attack mode. I don't know why amphibious landing used as ASW is inconceivable for China. They can send the ASW heli to do the job. Because in Taiwan strait contingency Japan will station missile in Miyako straits and put gauntlet on Chinese ship crossing the straits. China has to take those island and destroy the missile base You cannot do it from tha air only and has to put boot on the ground and Japan submarine will be lurking in the landing spot . So No 75 can double down as subchaser no problem with that! They can send the ASW helo from the deck and provide munition and fuel

It is not inconceivable. It can be done. But my argument is
1- 075s would be needed for amphibious assaults
2- China has enough of everything to procure a better helicopter carrier if the focus is ASW.

For example, in your scenario, the 075 carries ASW helicopters to defend itself while conducting an amphibious assault. This is in my opinion much more reasonable. But it is only doable if there are enough helicopters to support the assault after you account for replaced helicopters. If not, you are better off bringing more ASW assets to offload the ASW duty from the 075 and use its deck space for supporting the amphibious assault only.

 

[tphuang]

The first part is a quality versus quantity discussion. It is a long topic. For this case quantity is important because geographical coverage of ASW assets against modern subs is small. Trying to get every sensor you can get your hands on is not a good approach. You only do it if optimal solutions are not procurable in adequate numbers because of industrial constraints. Otherwise, you just procure more of the optimal solution. PLAN is definitely not trying to get its hands on every sensor it can. It is not limited by anything but budget. It seems you somehow convinced yourself that there is an urgency in the PLA. But we have zero reasons to think the Chinese government believes there is an urgency.

There is clearly urgency. They are building 7 052Ds at the same time. They are in the process of putting 8 055s into service and will be building 8 more after this. They have the largest military shipbuilding program in the world. By any measure, PLAN is going through a very aggressive buildup.

You listed a lot of ships but China uses a tiny fraction of its shipbuilding industry to build warships. It can easily accommodate building more warships. In fact, the industrial capacity is likely enough for 10x more. Training a few thousand more people is not a problem either. The only constraint here is budget.

hmm, only certain portion of China's shipbuilding capacity can be used for naval shipbuilding. The other parts of their shipyard are not setup to build military quality ships. It's extremely complicated to train sailors for modern warships. It takes time to build a modern navy. You are severely understating how much work is involved in training crew members to be able to operate new warships.

If China needs more ASW capability faster it can increase the PLA's budget. That increase in budget would buy more ASW capability if it gets used for buying dedicated ASW helicopter carriers rather than suboptimal 075s. Until PLA procures more than needed 075s, 075s are needed for amphibious assaults and are high-value assets themselves. Attaching them to carrier groups to do missions that other assets (dedicated ASW carrier, normal carrier) would do better is a waste of their amphibious assault capability. If you are doing that you are either compromising your amphibious assault capability or you have excess 075s. PLA having excess 075s would mean money wasn't optimally spent.
As others said it only makes sense if there is no possibility of an amphibious assault and normal ASW assets are not enough for the ongoing underwater warfare.

There is no plan for dedicated ASW carrier. 075 being one of a couple of ships capable of operating larger air wing will be required to carry different types of helicopters when it's not doing amphibious assaults. And most of the time, it will not be doing amphibious assaults. As such, most of time, it will need to be operating helicopters that can help offense/defense of the fleet it is operating in.

 

[BoraTas]

There is clearly urgency. They are building 7 052Ds at the same time. They are in the process of putting 8 055s into service and will be building 8 more after this. They have the largest military shipbuilding program in the world. By any measure, PLAN is going through a very aggressive buildup.

hmm, only certain portion of China's shipbuilding capacity can be used for naval shipbuilding. The other parts of their shipyard are not setup to build military quality ships. It's extremely complicated to train sailors for modern warships. It takes time to build a modern navy. You are severely understating how much work is involved in training crew members to be able to operate new warships.

There is no plan for dedicated ASW carrier. 075 being one of a couple of ships capable of operating larger air wing will be required to carry different types of helicopters when it's not doing amphibious assaults. And most of the time, it will not be doing amphibious assaults. As such, most of time, it will need to be operating helicopters that can help offense/defense of the fleet it is operating in.

Nothing can have me believe there is an urgency as long as the military budget stays this low. China is not even half serious about military build-up. A tiny percentage of Chinese industry is still a lot but the effort is low in general.
That statement about Chinese shipbuilding is just another speculation and is likely to be wrong. The 003 was built in a drydock along with 3 civilian vessels all much bigger than the 003. Now we have another civilian vessel in place of the 003. Does this indicate that the drydock that the 003 was built in is not capable of building military ships anymore?
There is no plan for using 075s as ASW carriers either. China will likely not build mini-carriers because such ships are usually bad ideas. China will likely use surface combatants, normal carriers, and fixed-wing land-based ASW aircraft, like almost every other country in the world.

"075 being one of a couple of ships capable of operating larger air wing will be required to carry different types of helicopters when it's not doing amphibious assaults. And most of the time, it will not be doing amphibious assaults. As such, most of time, it will need to be operating helicopters that can help offense/defense of the fleet it is operating in."

This is definitely not going to happen. You are conveniently assuming a lot of things to reach your conclusion. Where are CSGs with 075s in it? Let's look beyond China. Which country does it? The only time frame you can risk a 075 is after you achieve all your major goals in Taiwan and the first island chain. Until then, every single 075 is crucial and needs to be preserved. You can not risk an amphibious ship in high-risk missions that it is not designed for just because it is not participating in an assault at that moment.

I am stopping answering this discussion. You keep writing speculative things.

 

[Blitzo]

This is what I wrote originally
"I actually like the idea of using the helicopters for asw and sar roles rather than to just air drop marines. Put 075 east of Taiwan and it gives you a lot of additional aerial assets to assist rest of the fleet. Keep in mind that they have started to operate ka31s on there. They can help a fleet to track sea skimmers, surface warships and enemy aircraft."

I'm not saying it's optimized for that mission. But if you have a platform that can carry a bunch of helicopters, then you are going to use it.

and then I wrote
"In general, I think plan is just learning about what it can do with 075. So far, I haven't seen them operating a really large fleet on there. Once z20f production ramps up, I would expect a combination of z8, z18, z20 and ka31s on there. Depending on the mission, they could have more asw helicopter or more assault helicopter or more transport helicopter or more aew helicopter. Increasing the size of naval air wing is always a good thing.

And as time goes on, we will see more drone variants and such. We are still at a very early stage in terms of seeing how they plan to utilize 075s."

The fact that they are trialing Ka-31s/Z18F/Z18J on Type 075 should be evidence that PLAN is looking at exploring all possible roles.

075 is an amphibious assault ship with a large flight deck for helicopters, it makes complete sense for a full variety of helicopters in service to be verified with its flight deck.

However that doesn't mean all of the helicopters that have been verified on 075 will mean the 075 will operate in a given role for its normal mission.

No, I took offense to what he said because he wants 075 to be sitting in the port rather than help out the rest of the fleet. That's quite different from what you are saying.

No, what we're saying is quite similar.

075s should not be conducting ASW missions unless two conditions are both present:
1. The ASW threat is so great that 075s have to be pressganged into operating as a ASW carrier.
2. The 075s are not needed to be retained and/or operate in its actual amphibious assault role in the future.

If both of those factors are present, then sure, you'd be forced to use 075s as an ASW carrier, despite the fact that it is a suboptimal ASW carrier.

But if those two conditions are not present, then risking 075s as a ASW carrier is not worth it, and the best move may be to keep them at port where they can be kept relatively safer and held back for actual missions that it is designed for.

==

Putting it a different way, this is the specific part of one of your previous posts (3241) that I feel is very important to address:
"I'm going to write something up on this, but the gist is PLAN is unlikely to attempt a landing for the first few weeks, but they need to ensure air/sea control during that time. So for these few weeks, are you just going to keep LHDs in the port and not use it? You have a great platform that can carry a lot of ASW helicopters. Why waste it?"

A LHD like 075 is not "a great platform that can carry a lot of ASW helicopters" -- rather it is a poor and suboptimal platform that can carry a lot of ASW helicopters but itself is a poor ASW platform, and in this scenario is actually an important component of your overall amphibious assault capability that needs to survive to be part of the amphibious assault stage of the operation.

So yes, absolutely they should keep LHDs in port and keep them safe, rather than risking them as ASW carriers.

===

I understand where you are coming from -- the idea being to "maximize number of ASW helicopters at sea, so why not use 075s as a platform which can organically support a couple dozen ASW helicopters as a ASW carrier?"

But it's not as simple as that -- you have to consider what other missions the 075s are important for, and whether it's worth risking 075s in an ASW mission. You have to consider just what the extent of the ASW threat actually is and what the urgency of the mission actually is to risk your precious 075s.

Given all that, yes 075s can carry a fair number of ASW helicopters and operate as a ASW carrier -- but that doesn't mean 075s should operate as a ASW carrier, unless some rather extenuating circumstances are met.

 

[tphuang]

075 is an amphibious assault ship with a large flight deck for helicopters, it makes complete sense for a full variety of helicopters in service to be verified with its flight deck.

However that doesn't mean all of the helicopters that have been verified on 075 will mean the 075 will operate in a given role for its normal mission.




No, what we're saying is quite similar.

075s should not be conducting ASW missions unless two conditions are both present:
1. The ASW threat is so great that 075s have to be pressganged into operating as a ASW carrier.
2. The 075s are not needed to be retained and/or operate in its actual amphibious assault role in the future.

If both of those factors are present, then sure, you'd be forced to use 075s as an ASW carrier, despite the fact that it is a suboptimal ASW carrier.

But if those two conditions are not present, then risking 075s as a ASW carrier is not worth it, and the best move may be to keep them at port where they can be kept relatively safer and held back for actual missions that it is designed for.

==

Putting it a different way, this is the specific part of one of your previous posts (3241) that I feel is very important to address:
"I'm going to write something up on this, but the gist is PLAN is unlikely to attempt a landing for the first few weeks, but they need to ensure air/sea control during that time. So for these few weeks, are you just going to keep LHDs in the port and not use it? You have a great platform that can carry a lot of ASW helicopters. Why waste it?"

A LHD like 075 is not "a great platform that can carry a lot of ASW helicopters" -- rather it is a poor and suboptimal platform that can carry a lot of ASW helicopters but itself is a poor ASW platform, and in this scenario is actually an important component of your overall amphibious assault capability that needs to survive to be part of the amphibious assault stage of the operation.

So yes, absolutely they should keep LHDs in port and keep them safe, rather than risking them as ASW carriers.

Please read it carefully. I didn't say it's a great ASW platform. I said it's a great platform that can also carry a lot of ASW helicopters (as well as other types of helicopters).

At the same time, is it actually safer for LHD to be sitting in a port without air defense ships around it or be as part of a large fleet?

===

I understand where you are coming from -- the idea being to "maximize number of ASW helicopters at sea, so why not use 075s as a platform which can organically support a couple dozen ASW helicopters as a ASW carrier?"

But it's not as simple as that -- you have to consider what other missions the 075s are important for, and whether it's worth risking 075s in an ASW mission. You have to consider just what the extent of the ASW threat actually is and what the urgency of the mission actually is to risk your precious 075s.

Given all that, yes 075s can carry a fair number of ASW helicopters and operate as a ASW carrier -- but that doesn't mean 075s should operate as a ASW carrier, unless some rather extenuating circumstances are met.

I think you are over simplifying my comments. I'm advocating for 075s to operate as part of a larger fleet rather than sitting in port and doing nothing. And if it's part of a large fleet, then it's helicopters will get used for different missions. You seem to ignore my comments about other missions and just focus in on ASW.