075 LHD thread
- Thread starter nosh
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This is a nice role indeed, but we shall keep in mind that it's a secondary role for a LHD. It isn't really designed to not burden ASW groups, it isn't built for high sea steaming efficiency in general, it has significant limitations in aircraft operation tempo, too.
In the end, the first rule of any carrier in ASW warfare - don't become too Courageous. Nukes are simply faster at silent speeds than your full speed. And now Japanese large li-ions are essentially the same.
SSNs are not going to be faster than the helicopters themselves. Also, if Japanese lithium ion submarines can go faster than 075 (very doubtful), it will be very noisy and easily trackable. You are also likely to have more people onboard a 075 that can be dedicated to the ASW role in the event that you are not mounting an amphibious operation.
If you park a 075 in SCS or East of Taiwan, it will probably be providing its air wing to provide sensory data to help rest of the fleet.
Helicopters don't really play races with subs - at least, not modern subs(in the past it strictly speaking happened, but there is just 1 operation sub capable of anything remote in the modern era). But subs capable of taking a favorable launch position against SG can not just threaten its survival - it can do so remaining largely hidden. That's recipe for a disaster.
075 pros in this situation simply do not outweigh endangering both itself and the whole group.
Probably no indeed(they, as all other normal SSKs, still don't use water jets after all), but pretty high speeds with low signatures are still very much achievable.
I personally wouldn't really involve them in fleet operations at all. High value, vulnerable asset, which is far more valuable in its original role.
Whole theater is one huge "forced entry" sign, where w/o sufficient amphibious capability(against opposition) you simply can't fight.
Unless one navy can force a decisive battle on the other - it's a game of
I have no idea what you are talking about. 075s are already going to be there. Why would you not use them for asw? What's your problem with utilizing your assets? Is your goal for 075 to just stay in the port all day and hide? Maybe they should also hide carriers and 055s also and you won't loose anything ever.
Take a look at the z20s, they will be able to drop dipping sonar, use mad, launch sonobuoys and have surface search radar. You want as many of them in the air as possible to provide protective ring around your fleet or to hunt down submarines after the underwater sensors or surtass cue it up.
well, in a slightly roundabout way, but.
The basis of maritime warfighting doesn't lie in warships, and especially not in subs(those, as deadly as they can be, can't do much useful beyond pure material destruction). It lies on military bases. Maritime bases(islands, ports, airbases, key points) are taken with boots. Boots have to get there somehow - especially if there are those who don't really like to see those boots there.
Basically you are suggesting taking primary and most important asset of the whole campaign in the western pacific, and using it for a tertiary yet highly risky role(where it is very likely to be lost) early on in the campaign, for which it isn't nearly as suitable as it appears at first sight (many helicopters=should be good asw).
This is a very bad trade, which shouldn't be taken.
Let them do their job instead. There won't be enough of 075s and Amphibious groups in such a campaign anyways - unless either (1)the war is won, (2)the war is going very badly, but there is a safe perimeter to operate within (which can't be established without major amphibious landings in this theater).
And if you really want a dedicated ASW helicopter carrier - well, I'd rather suggest building a specialized fleet unit for the task instead - like the Japanese did. For example, a smaller 001A.
Ships should do their work first. Ships with crucial roles - especially so.
I kinda understand the sentiment that "landing ships are meh" - they aren't as glamourous. But it is they who win campaigns and wars.
Their number 1 concern is usn nuclear submarines. If they had no submarine threat, then 075 can concentrate on amphibious operation. However, plan is facing a huge submarine threat with no adequate submarine of its own to counter that. As such, it needs as many aerial assets as possible to hunt down the submarines.
More importantly, carrying a fleet of asw helicopters does not prevent it from carrying amphibious vehicles or landing craft needed for a landing. Unless you want them to use their helicopters to land Marines. Which is a pretty inefficient usage of naval aviation when you have hundreds of helicopters able to cross the straits from mainland side.
They are not going to try landing in Taiwan until they can secure air and sea control. Trying to land while ssn is running around loose is a disaster.
Then just built secondary carriers(maybe even "aircraft cruisers" once again) that can serve as nuclei of ASW groups. China has everything in place for such a program. As a bonus - with enough hypersonics such a group may in principle tie down(or even put out of game) a full enemy CSG, striking well above its weight.
Just don't bring amphibs away.
It's hard to combine sufficient airwing to feasibly do vertical maneuver (heavy transport helicopters+escort/attack helicopters on top) with the needed airwing for a proper ASW search. There shall be enough to have a ASW CAP for the amphibious group - but it's a defensive measure in the end.
Even if LHDs are going to be used within straits(which i doubt, but it may very well be) - it's still better to concentrate them on doing their primary mission - landings and their support. Range always means much for traditional helicopters(they're just gas killers), the less the better. Range means tempo - helicopter deckload can bring only so much in one run. Range means life and death for the wounded helicopters carry back.
But there are other targets, where this aviation capability will be needed more. There is eastern coast of Taiwan. There are key islands in the South China sea, in western pacific, maybe even in Ryukyu chain, shall Japan enter the conflict.
Maybe - who knows - even some other...historically-well known islands and chokepoints. They won't be middle shall such a conflict happen. In fact i honestly doubt even 8 fully developed amphibious groups would be enough to cover basic needs, given the sheer immensity of the theater.
And right now we're talking about 3 ships in training, not even 3 independent groups...yet.
SSNs will be running around forever. You may mostly keep them in check(outside of threat envelope), but even reliably cleaning them out from the general area of operations is a stretch - and that is before we're taking into account large USUVs;
physically destroying enough SSNs at sea to forget about them is basically a no-go - just won't succeed(attempt to Pearl Harbor them will bring better results).
Your aim is local command of the seas, until and unless submarines can't prevent you from exploiting command of the seas - you've done your job well enough. If, on the other hand, assets which in principle are designed to be used to use the command of the seas to the fullest(and, in case of LHDs, cement it through establishment of new bases and deletion of enemy ones) - SSNs by their existence are doing more direct operational harm than they normally should hope to achieve.