071 LPD thread

[kroko]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Even so it's not false to call it fully indigenous. I mean you would call the gripen a fully indigenous effort by the swedes though it uses American engines... Or at least I would.

You shouldnt. If it has a foreign engine, you cant call it a fully indigenous

I do not want to get into a versus discussion, but India has started building a carrier, which is different to being able to. Using your statement we can say that china can build carriers because the first pair have already supposedly started construction. So the only fair comparison you can make is to see what they have already built and put into service.

Huh ?? explain better you logic, im not understanding it. Are you saying that india started building an AC, without the ability to finish that same construction and put it to service ???
And for your knowledge, india has operated Acs for decades. And they have started construction of vikrant. See my post nº 2980 in the aircraft carrier thread for a photo.

Tha's not true. India cannot manufacture aircraft carriers. If you notice the news coming out of india for the past 10 years, you'll notice a lot of them are just purely bullshit. India make a lot of empty claims. Even if India somehow builts a carrier, majority of the subsystems would be imported, including the steel for the flightdeck. There would be nothing Indian on the ship, maybe except for few negligible parts.

Im not talking about tanks or planes. India is manufacturing an AC. Even if what you say about ACs subsystems is true, at least they have something to show for it, unlike china. Get me a photo of china building an AC, and well talk.

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

type 071 propulsion is not made in china

and india can build aircraft carriers, a capability that china so far hasnt show. If india can make AC, then they can make something like type 071.

that is just plain wrong

India makes "homemade" ship which use almost 90% of foreign parts right down to the electronics, and India has not been under arms embargo for last 20 years whereas China has, which has lead it to develop its own arm industrys

Indian ships are Russian design and Israeli systems put together in India just check any modern indian vessal

China is making things all by itself and will only benifit itself in the long term and means they can also sell these ships to other countrys for example F22 Frigates to Pakistan without 3rd partys getting involved, India cant sell its ship cus of foreign parts

Malaysia and Brazil has also shown interest in a lighter 15,000 ton LPD from China cus its fully Chinese built

 

[cn_habs]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

India's military savoir-faire is nowhere near China's level with the exception of operating ACs.

India's Navy and Air Force = made in Russia/Israel/France with Indian names/flags.

 

[kroko]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

that is just plain wrong

India makes "homemade" ship which use almost 90% of foreign parts right down to the electronics, and India has not been under arms embargo for last 20 years whereas China has, which has lead it to develop its own arm industrys

Indian ships are Russian design and Israeli systems put together in India just check any modern indian vessal

China is making things all by itself and will only benifit itself in the long term and means they can also sell these ships to other countrys for example F22 Frigates to Pakistan without 3rd partys getting involved, India cant sell its ship cus of foreign parts

Malaysia and Brazil has also shown interest in a lighter 15,000 ton LPD from China cus its fully Chinese built

how is it "plain wrong" ?? And are the kolkata and delhi destroyer classes, russian classes ?? true, their equipment is foreign. And you think that PLAN´s equipment is 100% chinese ?? if you check their engines and some radars, its not.

 

[i.e.]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

The Taiwan problem is very complex. It is not the same as the American Civil War, which was completely economical instead a political clash. Many would argue over the true causes, but I personally think that the main cause was the taxation and trade issues (I personally think the abolishment of slavery was somewhat a beautifying mask to justify the unification, anyways, not trying to criticize, just expressing a personal thought). In the Taiwan issue, politics play a big role. Let's be honest, being a patriotic Chinese myself and not a anti-communist, I still have to say that the mainland is an authoritarian regime, which is very corrupt and ruthless to its own people. If anyone of you here ever watched TV shows and political commentaries from HongKong and especially Taiwan media, you'll know how critical they are to the mainland government.

Taiwan had long being indoctrinated with anti-communist ideologies. The local political system is sometimes chaotic and laughable, but it is a functioning democracy and the citizens rights are protected. After years and years of media's brainwashing, they began to detest anything to do with mainland's government. I personally find it interesting when watching Taiwan's news, they still use Cold War terms, such as communist troops and CCP. So the Mainland itself has to change, in order to win the favour of the Chinese in Taiwan.

Another factor is the economy and the national image expressed by the mainland. Chinese people are ordinary human beings that are no different from any other cultures. When you have a poor and unliked relative, you probably distance yourself from that relative. On the contrary, if your relative is rich and powerful, then you would probably more or less try to let people know that you have this connection. Up until the early 90s, when people from Taiwan and Hongkong travel abroad, they would usually say where they're from first, then they would say they are Chinese. Let's be honest, China was still poor and backwards at that time compared to the West, and it was not that glorious to tell people that you're Chinese. But beginning in the last few years, more and more Chinese (Chinese in general) would say that they are Chinese, instead telling people first that they are from Hongkong or Taiwan. This is the result of the rise in China's status and influence in the international circle. Therefore, if it's a proud thing to tell people that you're Chinese, then why not do it. So, it is largely on mainland's part to play the game.

The last factor is how the mainland shows itself to Taiwan. Up to 1996, just before the Taiwan Strait missile crisis, an independent poll suggested that more than 80% of the population agree that they are Chinese. But after the crisis, the figure dropped to 30-40%, a historical low. If Mainland shows itself as an aggressive tyrant, then it is hard for it to be liked by the people in Taiwan. The old Chinese saying goes, "得民心者得天下", which literally translates to "the one that wins the hearts of the people would win the world". Over the last two decades, the mainland has done a lot for Taiwan, but these have been physically undermined by the authority in Taiwan. Usually only the bad things are remembered and the good forgotten. I personally think that the mainland should devote more into the media and propaganda aspect of the overall strategy. Let's be honest, we all know that the war in Iraq was mostly economical, and driven by national interest. But because of the influence of American media, even when millions around the world are condemning the invasion, the majority of the world's population still see the invasion as just and righteous, simply because the American media told them so. If the mainland's media does the same thing, then after years of corrosion, unification would be very easy. Otherwise, it would be obvious that if the PLA tries to take over Taiwan at this stage, even if the whole island is occupied and the Americans don't intervene, the local population would still be uprising against the PLA occupation, similar to those conflicts in today's Iraq.

So after all, unification of Taiwan take a lot more than just guns.

so...

you are saying.

inorder to win over the (free) media-indocrinated democratically brain-washed anti-mainland Taiwanese.

the authoritarian and unfree and undemocratic mainland has to do what?


bit laughable if you ask me....

 

[i.e.]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Im not talking about tanks or planes. India is manufacturing an AC. Even if what you say about ACs subsystems is true, at least they have something to show for it, unlike china. Get me a photo of china building an AC, and well talk.

uh, when has talking worth more than doing?

 

[i.e.]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

how is it "plain wrong" ?? And are the kolkata and delhi destroyer classes, russian classes ?? true, their equipment is foreign. And you think that PLAN´s equipment is 100% chinese ?? if you check their engines and some radars, its not.

let's talk about kolkata.

if one just looking at purely the Shipbuilding side.

by the time Lanzhou was floated most of its systems were installed.
by the time kolkata hits the water it is but a empty shell.

that tells you alot of the level of skill in each respective yard.

if we are to talk about the ship system.

the heart of the weapon system...airdefense destroyer, is its airdefense system.
missiles, radar, electronics, integrated system.

the tracking radar is from is from IAI,
long range survallence is from IAI,
long range sam is from IAI, (70km range barak II, closer to ESSM's capability (essentially a derby mounted on a booster) than a true long range sam per SM-IIMR block 3 or Rif-M or even HHQ-9+ systems)
1st in class laid down in 2003, takes 3 years just to launch the hull, takes another 6 years to outfit the system. (that is if schedule holds)

let's compare with Lanzhou. (if it is comparable)
APAR is from 14th institute, all of its major components down to the MMIC designed and made in china, combat information system MIC,
long range sam MIC.

1st of class laid down 2002, enter service 2004
2nd of class laid down 2003, enter service 2005;
and before those two ship ever hits the water, the core combat system (radar+missiles) has already spent couple of years in sea trail on a test ship.
where is IAI's EL/M-2248 MF-STAR system on a INS ship firing barak II day in and day out?

sorry, I find Chinese technical approach much more systematically and planned out than India's naval build up;... basically throw everything together and hope they work.

no, sorry, I fail to see the india's ship building and naval system integration capability materializing any where close to that of china. if anything the gap is widening.

as far as ship building goes chinese yards are already #2 in order and will be #1 in capacity in short. and that include some of the best and most complex high value added commercial ships (VLCC, Gas tankers, Cruisers, drill platforms etc)

 

[i.e.]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

and did some body talked about engines?

SEMT Pielstick
MTU
GT25000

sure, they are non-chinese designed systems.

but they all have corresponding license production/RE program in China.

not to mention their domestic product line entering service.

is there any program on such scale in India to support India's naval expansion? no.


how big of a propeller can India's Yard turn? is that propeller turning 5 axis machine made in India? well in chinese yard they are made and designed in china.

remember during 80s the brouhaha toshiba made when they sold CNC milling machines to Soviets supposily to make the Akulas more quiet?

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

You shouldnt. If it has a foreign engine, you cant call it a fully indigenous

Technically sure it isn't, but then no equipment in this world can be called fully made by anyone because the materials are sourced from everywhere. For this discussion calling 071 or gripen "fully indigenous" is no problem

Huh ?? explain better you logic, im not understanding it. Are you saying that india started building an AC, without the ability to finish that same construction and put it to service ???

No I'm saying you shouldn't count your chickens until the eggs hatch for our situation because you're comparing the respective countries shipbuilding industries.

And for your knowledge, india has operated Acs for decades. And they have started construction of vikrant. See my post nº 2980 in the aircraft carrier thread for a photo.

Yes I know but I don't see how that rebutts me or adds to your argument. (and for your knowledge if you're using the viraat as example of operating a real carrier... Well I concede the sheer time they have had operating with a small, tiny flat top will be better than the plan's no experience but that's a fairly small lead, if were comparing carrier experience)

Im not talking about tanks or planes. India is manufacturing an AC. Even if what you say about ACs subsystems is true, at least they have something to show for it, unlike china. Get me a photo of china building an AC, and well talk.

I agree the burden of proof lies on us making the claim, but it seems like rumors and talk is not good enough for you. The fact chinas constructing at least one conventional carrier as we speak is near universally accepted fact for many of us just like five years ago we knew the plaaf had jxx under development even though we had no pictures...

At the end of the day china simply has more experience In building and finishing large ships, both commercially and for military.

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

how is it "plain wrong" ?? And are the kolkata and delhi destroyer classes, russian classes ?? true, their equipment is foreign. And you think that PLAN´s equipment is 100% chinese ?? if you check their engines and some radars, its not.

India just likes to buy stuff for advertisment, you hide ur aircraft carrier in 1971 in bay of bengal and never even deployed it in the war zone, so what was the point in ur buying ex-british carrier?

India has over-paid Russia billions for aircraft carrier but u still dont have it yet while the Mig29Ks are sitting collecting dust

Indian projects takes decades, look arjun and lca, 25 years and still not operational, so forget big military ships, stick to cinema cus this isnt ur game

if u have so much faith in ur ships why did indian rise complaint to congress to US for giving Pakistan out of date Perry Class frigate? its from 1970s!!!!