071 LPD thread

[plawolf]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

As recent as 2008 one could still read comments such as "To invade Taiwan the PLA will have to engage in a hundred mile swim carrying their 40kg backpack " or something like that, or with the more mature ones suggesting that "it had been established that their ability to put forces on on Taiwan soil and keep them there is extremely doubtful."
Because the ROC forces have had decades to learn from Rommel's mistakes and turn those landing zones into killing zones of PLA forces. Meanwhile they can continually call in reinforcements while the PLA who would be only able to land a division at most would be starved of reinforcements.
So in relation to the present time, what's happened since then, to make those type of views redundant?

And in 2008 RAND were predicting an USAF win against the PLA in a Taiwan scenario. They have changed their tune somewhat since.

Even in 2008 the talk of '100 mile swim' was mostly laughed off as trash talk, and in 2011, its even less true and more funny.

With the air balance tipping ever over in the PLA's favor, the ground war becomes even more one sided. I am sure you are familiar with what modern air power could do to a dug in defense once they loose control of the skies.

The PLA is also a massive fan of the soviet overwhelming artillery barrage tactic.

The PLAN has converted old warships into coastal bombardment ships, and there are plenty of videos of them exercising with massed land based MLRS parked on the deck of ships.

The PLA has the precision stuff to take out key targets, and the firepower to literally blast a safe corridor through any and all defenses Taiwan has put up, and that is one of the tactics. Before landing, the PLAAF will use PGMs to take out all the key defensive installations. The PLA and PLAN will use MLRS to blast paths through minefields and tank traps for the tanks and infantry to push through once they land. The landing force will have top cover from CAS fast jets, attack helos and UCAVs to take out any hidden defenses the air force might have missed.

As soon as the air war has tipped in the PLA's favor, the ground war becomes a formality as there is no way any ground force would hold out against modern air power alone.

 

[plawolf]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

The M60s will not be used to engage PLA tanks. ROCA will use dedicated anti-tank missiles for the relatively small number of spearheading tanks.

From their training video it is clear that M-60s will be deployed close to landing zones relatively hidden for ambushing landing forces, their targets are landing crafts and troops disembarking from them concentrated together. They will fire flechet projectiles in groups (in effect acting like giant shotguns)

eg from 1:23 - 1:37
[video=youtube;bP9cm8QvnGo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP9cm8QvnGo&feature=related[/video]

Taiwan has a number of amphibious vehicles and they could be fitted with modern anti-tank missiles that may just be equally distructive against landing crafts or amphibious tanks. They may lurk near landing zones or simply sent to meet the landing force with cover.

Given a sustained assault Taiwan will fell but don't expect a walkover with low casulties.

You think the PLA will be subtle in any attack? One of the first things they will do is carpet bomb the entire coastline they plan to attack with MLRS. These are cheap and with China's manufacturing capabilities, could be employed in overwhelming numbers.

The air force will take out any hardened structures that might survive the MLRS bombardment, and will also be sending in Q5s and attack helos as well as their new UCAVs in vast numbers to cover the landings.

No ground force could stand up to modern precision bombing, and if you throw in good old fashioned saturation bombardment with cheap conventional weapons, you will need a miracle for the effect to not be devastating on the defenders.

Thats before the landings. During, there would be full air cover, so any tank that exposes themselves by opening fire can expect to be targeted and destroyed by CAS fast jets, attack helos or UCAVs very quickly.

They will be losses for the landing force, that cannot be avoided. But the odds of the defenders being able to inflict crippling losses are very slim.

Once a beachhead has been established and the PLA can bring their heavy armor and artillery in in significant numbers, it will become a rout as Taiwan's army will be hopelessly outmatched even if all of China's air power went on holiday and did nothing more.

 

[mobydog]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Is it possible to defend key landing positions using modified towed CIWS system. If you have 30mm gatling it may be very distructive to landing crafts.

Use 40mm anti-aircraft flak guns (even more devastating), cheap and reliable and duo-use. Even troops that manage to land will be counting their wounded by the second

 

[i.e.]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

One of the most laughable thing I have seen during these ROC Army exercises is when they drive M48s right onto the beach head.
come on this is 2011 not 1941.
If they gonna land troops on a beach, they can certainly hit the beach. Those tanks might as well dug in and be pill boxes.

 

[no_name]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Not really. If you have some old tanks not useful for anything else they can always act as close fire support.
They are not going to be turned into pill boxes for exactly the same reason that they are mobile. Same with these amphibious vehicles that can ferry defending troops from places to places and acts as gun/missile platforms.

Those tanks will likely rush out from behind cover when PLA troops are so close to the beach that fire support may risk taking out friendlies. They are arrayed together because armour is good at steamrolling flesh.

 

[MwRYum]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

As recent as 2008 one could still read comments such as "To invade Taiwan the PLA will have to engage in a hundred mile swim carrying their 40kg backpack " or something like that, or with the more mature ones suggesting that "it had been established that their ability to put forces on on Taiwan soil and keep them there is extremely doubtful."
Because the ROC forces have had decades to learn from Rommel's mistakes and turn those landing zones into killing zones of PLA forces. Meanwhile they can continually call in reinforcements while the PLA who would be only able to land a division at most would be starved of reinforcements.
So in relation to the present time, what's happened since then, to make those type of views redundant?

Those presumptions pretty much goes down the sewer by 2009, when China showcased what they've been working on over the previous 10 years...
In terms of Taiwan, by 2010 it's widely recognized that Taiwanese lost the thrones in both air and sea dominance (unless you count in timely US intervention) be it in quality and quantity:

In air, China won in numbers even we just talk about compatible generation of fighter aircraft (if we group J-10, J-11B and F-16, IDF, Mirage 2000-5 under the same grade), though in pilot's quality PLAAF's have yet to reach NATO standard by what we can read thus far; China have AWACS coming into wider service, though by how much it's comparable with E-2T is not that clear; though China's air mobility still not that good, but they've clearly demonstrated capability in long range + cargo drop operations, essential in deploying airborne troops with organic mechanized support.

From sea: Taiwan's submarine forces consist of 2 outdated sub and 2 more WW2-era relic, while China have several times more of that, whether you're talking about those of the same grade or leading edge types, rumored to have AIP equipped. Surface force is the same, and for the first time China have the upper hand in terms of quality and quantity.

Long range artillery: that has always been China's game, whereas Taiwan can only hope to shell Fujian coastal area with the 240mm artillery batteries, China have long range MLRS and ballistic missiles, and officially from 2009, including cruise missiles. Coupled with C-GPS network reaching Greater China area coverage, the precision strike capability would not just overwhelm Taiwan's air defense, but devastate them - remember, including the Partiot PAC-2/3 that Taiwan have are in fixed positions, if even civilians can identify those positions with Google Earth, think about what PLA can do.

In terms of land, the prevailing thinking is that if China can land a full mechanized division on Taiwan, that'd mean China have won the dominance in air and sea, and the end will be close...in terms of armor the ROCA is hopelessly outclassed by at least a generation, and unless they can get more Javelin ATGM into the hands of their infantry, it'd be hopelessly PLA's game.

And in terms of amphibious assault...it's undeniable that China now still need to rely on WW2 or ex-Soviet amphibious doctrine, and most of the Taiwan's western coastline have become unsuitable for landing site due to nature's erosion / development / military preparation, but as more and more 071 LPD and LCAC are available, PLAN will then able to adopt the US model in amphibious ops, that means it'd open spots previously thought unsuitable to land, and deliver MBTs into play far sooner than the scenarios Taiwan now projecting. To say the least, even at the last exercise Taiwan have yet modify the counter-amphibious landing scenario to fit with the change of situations, including the "enemy" using LCAC, large transport helicopters and attack helicopters in a multi-dimension, beyond-horizon, high-speed amphibious assault.

 

[pugachev_diver]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

I personally think the overall strength of the PLA around Taiwan Strait region may although be superior, but definitely not overpowering. Since Ma Ying-Jeoh became president of ROC, the conscription law was changed in favour of contracted personnel instead of forceful conscription. This would greatly improve the quality of the combatants. Another thing to keep in mind is that although the PLAs overall number is skyhigh, but the actual troops deployed around the Taiwan strait is no that great. Even if those troops are stationed in the region, the actual numbers that can be deployed across the strait is still very few. Not to also mention the logistics behind the whole operation and the lifting ability needed for the massive troops. Unless the PLAs airlifting ability is as powerful as the American, it would be impossible to unify Taiwan.

 

[MwRYum]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Since Ma Ying-Jeoh became president of ROC, the conscription law was changed in favour of contracted personnel instead of forceful conscription. This would greatly improve the quality of the combatants.

The move towards career personnel rather than rely on conscripts for the bulk of service personnel would be...interesting to see. For one, armed services doesn't have the level of social prestige and respect as in the US or China, Taiwan society is plagued with the old-Chinese mentality that "good men don't join the army", and even the current conscription young men seeks a myriad of ways - even self-mutilation methods - to dodge the draft, god know how they'd fill the ranks when move away from drafting.
Besides, from what I've read so far, the ROC military is very bureaucratic in structure, which many sees no good career prospect in this line of work.
Don't know if the continual economic downturn have make armed services become favorable choice, though.

 

[flyzies]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Which regard to the whole Taiwan scenario, the bottom line is this: once China achieves air superiority it is game over.
PLA leadership isnt stupid enough to put soldiers on Taiwan soil until they know those soldiers will be adequately supported from the air. So we can assume by the time soldiers land, Taiwan air bases, air defence systems and coastal defences would be significantly softened or destroyed.
As for Taiwan's helicopters and tanks, they'll pretty much be target practice for PLAAF fighters. Apaches and Cobras will not be able to do their jobs when they're being targeted by AAMs.
Which means the burden to defend Taiwan will be left on shoulders of ROC army.

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Which regard to the whole Taiwan scenario, the bottom line is this: once China achieves air superiority it is game over.

Well if they're able to maintain air superiority, without outside (US) intervention.

As for Taiwan's helicopters and tanks, they'll pretty much be target practice for PLAAF fighters. Apaches and Cobras will not be able to do their jobs when they're being targeted by AAMs.
Which means the burden to defend Taiwan will be left on shoulders of ROC army.

Hmm helicopters in a defensive role could be very potent, if they have the necessary logistics and support undisturbed, because I think it's very difficult for radar to differentiate a slow moving helicopter from trees and ground clutter, and relatively fast jets will find it hard to get a lock.
If the PLAAF use L-8s armed with SRAAMs then they might have a better chance against choppers than say J-10s. (On that note I think JL-8 is a very good base to build a light, low speed strike fighter like a mini A-10. Put on some conformal fuel tanks, strengthen and up armour the air frame and up the engine thrust a little and you can put on a centerline gun pod and a couple of SRAAMs, HJ-10s or 50 Kg LS-6s without much trouble which will be a very capable platform against armour and infantry.)

The best way to get rid of the helicopters is to use either hit them while they're on the ground. Obviously that will still leave a fraction still flyable and a threat, but PLA WZ-9s armed with PL-90, and WZ-10 and WZ-19 in future should have an edge over apaches or cobras, seeing as the latter two will most probably be armed with ATGMs rather than air to air, anti chopper ones.