071 LPD thread

[joshuatree]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

....your diagram is wrong, because in the picture LCAC 1 sits partially infront of light 1 you even show it with the red lines, look at it...

That only appears to be the case if your LCAC's ramp door is down. So if the ramp door is up, it looks like the LCAC is behind the red line. Maybe they need to preload the LCACs or at least move one out like one moves cars around in a garage to enable loading/unloading. But during transport, there doesn't seem to be any difficulty in parking 4 LCACs tightly together in that bay.

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

I counted 30 guard rails between lights. But the point is this, the LCACs are parked to the aft of each light...they do not need 30m in front of the light, they need it behind the light...towards the aft, and in the first pic it clearly shows that the 1st LCAC has enough room behind the light to fit in...ergo, the others will too.

I believe they can fit four in. I also believe they have room in those hangars to cram in four Z-8s if they want.
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Jeff what do you think the entire length of the well deck is?

 

[patriota]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

I counted 30 guard rails between lights. But the point is this, the LCACs are parked to the aft of each light...they do not need 30m in front of the light, they need it behind the light...towards the aft, and in the first pic it clearly shows that the 1st LCAC has enough room behind the light to fit in...ergo, the others will too.

I believe they can fit four in. I also believe they have room in those hangars to cram in four Z-8s if they want.

What astonishes me is how little left over there then is in the vessel for berthing troops and their equipment.

A US vessel is designed to maximize the number of troops and equipment it can hold and then push those ashore in consecutive waves...totaling far more than what one or two trips would carry...requiring maybe four or five waves or more.

The PLAN Type 071 vessels seems to carry far fewer troops and equipment, and therefore be able to land fewer, but quicker and with less waves.

The US overcomes this by employing more vessels of varrying sorts...from the huge LHDs and LHAs to the LPDs similar to the Type 071, to large LSDs which are significantly larger thatn the PLANs Type 073 LSTs.

Yes, a very long well deck, abe to acomodate 3-4 LCACs, but little room for hangars and garages.

I think more or less 500 marines?

Looks like spanish LPDs, Galicia Class, very goods, but limited.

Another thing is a LHD, the route PLAN may consider in the future, something like the Juan Carlos I (and Camberra Class).

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A very informative PDF.

900 marines, 4 heavy (or 6 medium helos) operating and the same time, a plenty of space for hangars and garages ... and 4 LCM-1s, each of them can transport a Leo-II (a very big cat).

 

[delft]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

@bdpopeye

Also..Present day USMC/USN amphibious tactics call for a flanking assault on beachheads.. not a frontal assault like Normandy.

I understood the beachhead is the place you land, not a center of resistance of the defenders.

 

[Jeff Head]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Jeff what do you think the entire length of the well deck is?

Well, if all four are in there it has to be a minimum of 132 meters. However, I do not believe they designed it with that close of a tolerance because then the first one in would literally be touching the far end of the well deck towards the bow, and each LCAC would then touch (be bumped right up against) the LCAC in front of it, and the last one in would literally be touching the closed door.

No, there will be some allowance for room in between. I believe the minimum length is probably 140m and perhaps 145m. This means that the well deck takes up either 2/3rd or more of the entire length of the Type 071.

Is this uncommon? No.

The US Navy has eight Whidbey Island Class LSDs. Built from 1985 through 1992, they displace 16,100 tons and are 186 meters long...smaller than a Type 071, and yet they will each carry four US Navy LCACs in their well decks. Each US LCAC is 26.5 meters long, so four of them are 106 meters. The Whidbey Island well deck is 134m long, meaning they reserve an additional 28 meters beyond what the LCACs take up. If you look at the ratio of overall length (186m) to well deck (134m) you find that the well deck of a Whidbey Island takes up 72% of the overall length of the vessel. If the Type 071 had a similar ratio, its well deck would be just over 150m long.

The Whidbey Island Class can carry 500 Marines and their equipment and has a very large helo landing deck, but no hangar, meaning a lot of helos can land their and pick up troops, but they cannot be housed there.

The follow-on four ships of the Harpers Ferry class, built between 1995 and 1998, are basically the same hull as the Whidbey Island, but only carry two LCACs and have much more room for vehicles and cargo.

This lack of helo housing/hangars is because in US Marine and Amphibious Group doctrine. These units would be part of an Amphibious Ready Group (ARG) which would consist of a single large (40,000 ton) LHD or LHA, a couple of LPDs (Either Austin Class ot San Antonio Class) and two LSDs. Escorted by a Burke and a couple of Frigates at least. The LSDs would utilize helos for air assault from either the LHD/LHA or the LPDs.

Here's the side, cut away view of the Whidbey Island Class where you can see the long length of its well deck:

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

I counted 30 guard rails between lights. But the point is this, the LCACs are parked to the aft of each light...they do not need 30m in front of the light, they need it behind the light...towards the aft, and in the first pic it clearly shows that the 1st LCAC has enough room behind the light to fit in...ergo, the others will too.

I believe they can fit four in. I also believe they have room in those hangars to cram in four Z-8s if they want.

What astonishes me is how little left over there then is in the vessel for berthing troops and their equipment.

A US vessel is designed to maximize the number of troops and equipment it can hold and then push those ashore in consecutive waves...totaling far more than what one or two trips would carry...requiring maybe four or five waves or more.

The PLAN Type 071 vessels seems to carry far fewer troops and equipment, and therefore be able to land fewer, but quicker and with less waves.

The US overcomes this by employing more vessels of varrying sorts...from the huge LHDs and LHAs to the LPDs similar to the Type 071, to large LSDs which are significantly larger thatn the PLANs Type 073 LSTs.

I think the PLAN knows it cannot sustain a very large fleet of amphibious assault ships like the USN, that is to say, it does not need a variety of ships all "specializing" in a task (LHA/D, LPD, LSD) during current peacetime.

So with 071 they went with a ship that has the large well deck of an LSD and a larger hangar than most LPDs (how many V-22s can San antonio hold, on that matter?), in a very decently sized hull. Of course having such a large well deck, and having the forward vehicle bay, means there are not "levels" of cargo holds like in US LPDs, meaning the overall volume of cargo and vehicles it can haul may be less. But I suspect 071s will be supported by numerous smaller LSTs to make up the shortfall in that regard.

Personally I would like the PLAN to produce another trio of LPDs, either 071s or an evolution of the design, so they can always have four vessels in the water ready. Add another three 40k ton LHA/LPDs to that so two can be in the water at all times, carrying exclusively helicopters (STOL planes don't really matter) as a mix of ASW, helicopter gunship, and medium weight assault choppers, and you have a neat amphibious ready group or two for the entire PLAN that will be able to rival even what the USN can muster. Of course, PLAN won't have as many ARGs as the USN, but at this point they do not really need it.


I also want to state that I think 071s are definitely much heavier than 20,000 tons, probably the 26,000 tons that the PLAN officer stated last year.

Albion has a length of 173m and beam of 29m, displaces about 21k tons full load
san antonio has a length of 208m and beam of 32m, displaces 25k tons full load
071 has a length of 210m and a beam of 28m. It should definitely be near san antonio's full displacement.

 

[Jeff Head]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Personally I would like the PLAN to produce another trio of LPDs, either 071s or an evolution of the design, so they can always have four vessels in the water ready. Add another three 40k ton LHA/LPDs to that so two can be in the water at all times, carrying exclusively helicopters (STOL planes don't really matter) as a mix of ASW, helicopter gunship, and medium weight assault choppers, and you have a neat amphibious ready group or two for the entire PLAN that will be able to rival even what the USN can muster. Of course, PLAN won't have as many ARGs as the USN, but at this point they do not really need it.

If the PLAN fielded a ARG with a 40,000 ton LHD, two 0f the Type 071 LPDs, two of the Type 72 III LSTs and two of the Type 073 LSTs, then they would have a very decent ARG to be sure...and if they had the capability of having two of those ready at any time, they would have developed a very powerful amphibious capability over about anyone else in that part of the world.

I also want to state that I think 071s are definitely much heavier than 20,000 tons, probably the 26,000 tons that the PLAN officer stated last year.

Albion has a length of 173m and beam of 29m, displaces about 21k tons full load
san antonio has a length of 208m and beam of 32m, displaces 25k tons full load
071 has a length of 210m and a beam of 28m. It should definitely be near san antonio's full displacement.

I'm not so sure.

4 extra meters (about 13 feet) carried out over the 208 meter length can account for quite a bit of displacement. I mean think of it...it is 13 feet wider time the entire length of the vessel times the height of the vessel...all of that volume and the weight it carries.

But there is another dimension that needs to be considered and that is the draft. If the draft of the San Antonio were greater than that of the Type 071, and you carry that out over the length of the vessel as well, thenthat would result in a significantly larger displacement. OTOH, if the draft of the Type 071 were greater, then that would tend to negate the 4m greater beam of the San Antonio, and their displacements should be very close.

As it is, the Draft for both vessels is the same, 7 meters, or about 23 feet.

So, take the 210 meters, multiply it by 4, and then mulitply that by seven (as a minimum...it could actually be more because the draft is not the full height you would measure) and you end up with 5,880 cubic meters that the San Antonio is larger than the Type 071. In terms of cubic feet it is 688.9 ft x 13 ft x 23 ft or 205,981 cubic feet...that's a LOT of volume, and depending on the weight per cubic foot, could add up to several thousand tons. Calculated very basically, every ten pounds per cubic foot would add an additional 1,000 tons. So a disparity of, say 4,000 tons is not hard to imagine.

 

[A.Man]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

This Small Task Force Is Big Enough for 98% Countries To Handle. American Taxpayers are way overspent, but the US Navy can fight the world 11 times, maybe more!

 

[plawolf]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Good to see the PLAN doing combined arms amphibious assault training. It does look a little threadbare, but hopefully things will look much better in a few years when the Liaoning and/or the future LHD become operational and they deploy the full complement of LCACs from an 071.

A four ship LCAC pack with lots of Z8s, Z9s, WZ10s and maybe even WZ19s with J15s flying top cover and CAS would really be a sight to see.

 

[asif iqbal]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Although I don't want to drag this back to where we were before but did someone say that naval Z8 has a folding tail? If so can I say is there any photos of this, I really want to get to the bottom of this, any illustrations would be great!