056 class FFL/corvette

of course such 054b would be superior for asw but it would also be quite expensive. some hypothetical 056b with a proper sonar suite, asw torpedos and 4-8 cy-x missiles would offer quite a bit of bang for the buck in the coastal regions. I am talking about 100-200 km away from chinese coast, not more. Enough that, where needed, a helicopter could be flown to the 056b and perform a couple of missions from there, before returning to land for maintenance. While 056b couldnt offer more than refuelling and rearming, that is still enough for a lot of the missions a lot of the time spent out in the seas.

PLAN doesnt use dedicated, organic helos as it is, even with ships that do have hangars. it uses a pool of helicopters and sends them to ships on a need to have base. And yes, a helicopter can easely be strapped down on helipad while it is not being used or is being refuelled.

Again, while certainly not as effective as a larger frigate which can dash 30 knots for a few days while carrying more cy-x missiles and having a helo that is more present - it is still effective enough for its cost. We are talking about over a thousand of kilometers of coast that needs to be covered. using frigates for that is just not financially possible. helicopters are good for targeting, but not for detecting, one needs persistance - and that is a ship with a sonar suite. in a way, 056b would be worth it even without any helo and cy-x missiles. just to have a network of mobile sonars which can then alert other assets in the area and direct them to sub hunting.

Of course, a fixed sonar network on the sea bed would also be useful, but less so, more as a complement. It can't be a substitute for a ship with a sonar in times of war.

Totoro said:

of course such 054b would be superior for asw but it would also be quite expensive. some hypothetical 056b with a proper sonar suite, asw torpedos and 4-8 cy-x missiles would offer quite a bit of bang for the buck in the coastal regions. I am talking about 100-200 km away from chinese coast, not more. Enough that, where needed, a helicopter could be flown to the 056b and perform a couple of missions from there, before returning to land for maintenance. While 056b couldnt offer more than refuelling and rearming, that is still enough for a lot of the missions a lot of the time spent out in the seas.

PLAN doesnt use dedicated, organic helos as it is, even with ships that do have hangars. it uses a pool of helicopters and sends them to ships on a need to have base. And yes, a helicopter can easely be strapped down on helipad while it is not being used or is being refuelled.

Again, while certainly not as effective as a larger frigate which can dash 30 knots for a few days while carrying more cy-x missiles and having a helo that is more present - it is still effective enough for its cost. We are talking about over a thousand of kilometers of coast that needs to be covered. using frigates for that is just not financially possible. helicopters are good for targeting, but not for detecting, one needs persistance - and that is a ship with a sonar suite. in a way, 056b would be worth it even without any helo and cy-x missiles. just to have a network of mobile sonars which can then alert other assets in the area and direct them to sub hunting.

Of course, a fixed sonar network on the sea bed would also be useful, but less so, more as a complement. It can't be a substitute for a ship with a sonar in times of war.

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054B's are almost certainly going to be made, and they are going to have TAS, so I don't know what you mean by more expensive. Is a TAS on a 054B more expensive than a TAS on a 056A, or a helo on a 054B more expensive than a helo on a 056A? Of course not. While I can easily see future iterations of the 054 series, I can just as easily see NO future iterations of the 056, or at least any that include an ASW variant. We know that the 054A is already tasked to perform ASW, so it makes sense that a follow-on would also be tasked for it, and perhaps do it better. We know that the 056 is tasked to do no such thing, and no evidence beyond online fantasizing that any future versions will be modified to perform ASW, or will even exist in the first place. Just because people here want it to doesn't mean the PLAN wants it to.

Also, you're essentially arguing for a non-existent requirement: shipbourne large area ocean underwater surveillance and/or warfare using warships. Does the USN even do this? Of course not. It uses SOSAS. And for task force ASW, it uses SURTASS/LFA mounted on purpose-built ships. And in fact the Flight IIA AB deletes TAS entirely. And yet you would have the PLAN running around with ships stringing TAS all over the place as an attempted solution to its ASW deficiencies. What the PLAN actually needs are sensors like the SOSAS system for general surveillance and SURTASS/LFA ships for task forces, which don't require "timesharing" ASW helos to be fully effective. And how do you know which active 056's to send helos to, and which ones will happen to sail close to enemy subs? You don't, which means your limited deployment of ASW helos to 056's could end up being a totally wasted shot in the dark, which means the 056 would extremely inefficient in performing any putative ASW activities.

Like I said, it would be absolutely wonderful to thow a TAS and a helo on every ship, but this does not mean that is the best use of resources to devote to ASW. If it was, the USN would have done it already. In fact, the trend is toward the opposite direction.

Mysterre said:

What the 056 would need to really effectively hunt subs is a TAS and an ASW helo with a dedicated hangar, both of which are probably considered too expensive to mass produce in the numbers that the 056 will be expected to be made in. While it would be nice to arm every ship and its mother with a TAS and a helo, I don't really feel this is likely to be part of PLAN's ASW doctrine or the 056's role. A 054/A/B operating as part of a task force would IMO be far more suited to subhunting than a lone 056.

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TAS is effective in deep water, where it can be set at above or below a thermal layer, if one exists. It is away from the ship and hence its noise, but lacks in resolution when angle of sound source (i.e. sub) is away from broad side (simple physics, really). Therefore in shallow water where this corvette is intended, it's not very effective. Not to mention they run the risk of getting snagged by a rock or coral before they are even fully deployed!

My point is: for this 056, no TAS, no big deal for its purpose.

056's main patrol region would be Chinese EEZ and extend to the first island chain at the farthest. In this region it appears that PLA is geared toward shore based ASW, utilizing GX6 ASW aircraft and the rumored Chinese SOSUS to detect and attack submarines near Chinese waters.

Yorkie said:

TAS is effective in deep water, where it can be set at above or below a thermal layer, if one exists. It is away from the ship and hence its noise, but lacks in resolution when angle of sound source (i.e. sub) is away from broad side (simple physics, really). Therefore in shallow water where this corvette is intended, it's not very effective. Not to mention they run the risk of getting snagged by a rock or coral before they are even fully deployed!

My point is: for this 056, no TAS, no big deal for its purpose.

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TAS cannot be placed beneath the boundary layer. You are referring to variable depth sonars (VDS) which require a big drogue at the end that can be commanded to dive, and also requires a speciallly-designed stern that can accomodate the deployment of this drogue. The Luhu had such a VDS; this was later converted to TAS along with the accompanying changes to the stern. Alot of passive towed sonar systems are labeled "TAS" but they are no such thing if they have a drogue that can be maneuvered.

Mysterre said:

TAS cannot be placed beneath the boundary layer. You are referring to variable depth sonars (VDS) which require a big drogue at the end that can be commanded to dive, and also requires a speciallly-designed stern that can accomodate the deployment of this drogue. The Luhu had such a VDS; this was later converted to TAS along with the accompanying changes to the stern. Alot of passive towed sonar systems are labeled "TAS" but they are no such thing if they have a drogue that can be maneuvered.

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The line array in TAS is negatively buoyant, so when ship slows down or better yet, stopped, it sinks. Therefore TAS requires forward speed and steady course to function. It is a good detection tool but not so much in localization of threat.

HP 3rd and 4th (?).
Segments for the 3rd was rumoured to already exist in May.

Adds nothing to the conversation, but I found this image online and thought it may be of interest

SampanViking said:

Adds nothing to the conversation, but I found this image online and thought it may be of interest

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The 056 looks like the aggressor here, with a sudden surprise attack on the enemy ship. At that range it should first be targeting the main gun on that ship, though.