055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Tam]

True ... but also not true.

It works with previous gen NA-25 as well.

Also, while most FCS look the same, I agree you can't go by superficial appearances. ID the FCS (which most ships have) and look to their capabilities.

eg. Thales Sting Mk2



That's 2 already ... want to bet there aren't more?

Really? Because my understanding of this is that it requires two separate systems.

You have the FCR that is tracking the target, so therefore it is illuminating the target as it tracks.

Then you need a separate system that tracks the projectile and communicates with it on a separate beam.

 

[Heliox]

Really? Because my understanding of this is that it requires two separate systems.

You have the FCR that is tracking the target, so therefore it is illuminating the target as it tracks.

Then you need a separate system that tracks the projectile and communicates with it on a separate beam.

Yes, it does require 2 systems
- One for acquisition
- One for guidance (Ka-Band)

They can be on the gun mount (like Strales which will then require a separate acquisition radar eg. NA-25) or
They can be on a wholly separate mount like the NA-30 or STING/STIR or any dual band FCS with a Ka-Band

Same as any CIWS system whether close or open loop. You can be like Phalanx with everything on the mount or your could be like AK-630 with everything off mount or middle of road or even go half/half like the STRALES solution

So basically look out for a Dual (with Ka-Band) FCS paired with a 76SR ... all the visible parts are there for DART to work. In this case, you cannot discount DARTS unless you can confirm the FCS is not integrated with DART or the ammo is not carried.

 

[Philister]

Really? Because my understanding of this is that it requires two separate systems.

You have the FCR that is tracking the target, so therefore it is illuminating the target as it tracks.

Then you need a separate system that tracks the projectile and communicates with it on a separate beam.

You are assuming that any guided munition has to work like the DART, which isn’t true

 

[Philister]

 

[Tam]

Yes, it does require 2 systems
- One for acquisition
- One for guidance (Ka-Band)

They can be on the gun mount (like Strales which will then require a separate acquisition radar eg. NA-25) or
They can be on a wholly separate mount like the NA-30 or STING/STIR or any dual band FCS with a Ka-Band

Same as any CIWS system whether close or open loop. You can be like Phalanx with everything on the mount or your could be like AK-630 with everything off mount or middle of road or even go half/half like the STRALES solution

So basically look out for a Dual (with Ka-Band) FCS paired with a 76SR ... all the visible parts are there for DART to work. In this case, you cannot discount DARTS unless you can confirm the FCS is not integrated with DART or the ammo is not carried.

It cannot be this XXX or that. It has to be This And That.

The first system is used to acquire and track the target, which is the FCR itself.

The second antenna communicate with the projectile. The FCR sends guidance instructions to the second system which sends it to the projectile. This system is best described as command guidance. Note that this is CLOS, not SARH guidance. A number of short ranged missiles also use this system, such as the HQ-7/Croatale and the Tor-M1/HQ-17.




You have two separate axis in tracking, one the target, and the other the shell. The one guiding the shell has to be something that points to the projectile at launch, and that's the gun itself. That's shown on the video and its on their PDF as well. The two beams are not emanating from the same source and location, but two different ones. The second device has to be the Strales itself on the turret. It cannot be with any other turret that does not have this device. So its back to Square One. If the turret does not have the transmitter needed to talk to the projectile, it doesn't have DART.

Its possible to have both tracking and guidance systems on the same mount, but that mount has to be on the gun because the axis for tracking the target and the axis for communicating with the projectile are nearly one and the same. But if the acquisition and tracking system is away from the gun, such as the ship's own main FCR, leading to a separate tracking axis, the system to communicate with the projectile still has to be on the gun mount and pointed at the projectile.

Those pictures of the NA-25, STIR or STING do not show a second emitter and antenna, and what they show right beside the antenna are the usual EO cameras. These antennas are inverse cassegrain, they only have one beam that is mechanically directed by the dish.

Being dual band has nothing to do with the DART. FCRs are moving into KA band because it offers even more target and angular resolution than X-band, but Ka band sacrifices range, which is why X-band is retained and the FCR goes from X to Ka band depending on the situation that demands it. As such both bands reside in the main FCR, and the frequency used to communicate with the projectiles is a different one from the FCR to remove interference.

 

[Heliox]

tldr; Your position is that the all important Ka-band beam for DART guidance must be on the gun mount because of x,y,z

quick and dirty response;
No the Ka-band guidance beam doesn't need to be on the firing mount.

Example
Take the example of a CLOS missile, the Seawolf in both launcher and VL versions, the CLOS guidance is provided by a (eventually) K-band radar that is displaced from the missile launcher (on the superstructure).

Take the NA-30S brochure - The Ka-Band emitter on the NA-30S is "Used for DART ammunition guidance"
Not to state the obvious but the NA-30S is definitely not mounted on the gun mount

In conclusion, NO. The guidance beam does not have to come from the gun mount.

I do understand what you're trying to get at so I'll offer you this ...

A CLOS beam perfectly aligned with launcher/gun platform removes issues with the beam and projectile/missile path convergence. A displaced CLOS guidance unit will have a minimum range before the fov of the rearward facing receivers on the missile/projectile is unmasked to the beam. This distance will vary depending on the angular difference and distance between the guidance unit and launcher/gun.

eg. firing fwd from the A position means the projectile is immediately in line with the CLOS beam. Firing abeam from A/Y position, yes there will be a zone where the projectile receivers can't pick up the CLOS beam, that distance depending on how wide the fov on the projectile receivers are

But within the scheme of things for a CIWS, a minimum distance of let's say 100~200m is probably a non issue? any AShM being engaged at that distance doesn't need active guidance. It's point blank point and shoot.

Those pictures of the NA-25, STIR or STING do not show a second emitter and antenna, and what they show right beside the antenna are the usual EO cameras. These antennas are inverse cassegrain, they only have one beam that is mechanically directed by the dish.

Mate, the brochures for all of them advertise dual-band, multi beam, all within that one installation. Go tell them they are engaging in false advertising?

Being dual band has nothing to do with the DART. FCRs are moving into KA band because it offers even more target and angular resolution than X-band, but Ka band sacrifices range, which is why X-band is retained and the FCR goes from X to Ka band depending on the situation that demands it. As such both bands reside in the main FCR, and the frequency used to communicate with the projectiles is a different one from the FCR to remove interference.

Yes, I get that the low frequency has range but not resolution and the move to high(er) frequencies for all the reasons stated above. Modern FCS use both singularly and/or in combination for both volume and resolution

BUT DART uses Ka-band for guidance also because the beam is much tighter. Don't need to say why CLOS guidance benefits from a tight beam do I?

Also, Whatever range sacrifice for Ka-band doesn't matter since it still well exceeds the engagement range of the DART.

 

[Tam]

tldr; Your position is that the all important Ka-band beam for DART guidance must be on the gun mount because of x,y,z

quick and dirty response;
No the Ka-band guidance beam doesn't need to be on the firing mount.

Example
Take the example of a CLOS missile, the Seawolf in both launcher and VL versions, the CLOS guidance is provided by a (eventually) K-band radar that is displaced from the missile launcher (on the superstructure).

Take the NA-30S brochure - The Ka-Band emitter on the NA-30S is "Used for DART ammunition guidance"
Not to state the obvious but the NA-30S is definitely not mounted on the gun mount

In conclusion, NO. The guidance beam does not have to come from the gun mount.

I do understand what you're trying to get at so I'll offer you this ...

A CLOS beam perfectly aligned with launcher/gun platform removes issues with the beam and projectile/missile path convergence. A displaced CLOS guidance unit will have a minimum range before the fov of the rearward facing receivers on the missile/projectile is unmasked to the beam. This distance will vary depending on the angular difference and distance between the guidance unit and launcher/gun.

eg. firing fwd from the A position means the projectile is immediately in line with the CLOS beam. Firing abeam from A/Y position, yes there will be a zone where the projectile receivers can't pick up the CLOS beam, that distance depending on how wide the fov on the projectile receivers are

But within the scheme of things for a CIWS, a minimum distance of let's say 100~200m is probably a non issue? any AShM being engaged at that distance doesn't need active guidance. It's point blank point and shoot.




Mate, the brochures for all of them advertise dual-band, multi beam, all within that one installation. Go tell them they are engaging in false advertising?



Yes, I get that the low frequency has range but not resolution and the move to high(er) frequencies for all the reasons stated above. Modern FCS use both singularly and/or in combination for both volume and resolution

BUT DART uses Ka-band for guidance also because the beam is much tighter. Don't need to say why CLOS guidance benefits from a tight beam do I?

Also, Whatever range sacrifice for Ka-band doesn't matter since it still well exceeds the engagement range of the DART.

You misread the brochure and how CLOS works.

This is what the brochure says.




There is no guidance beam. CLOS isn't Semi Active Radar Homing or SARH. You spent an entire post talking CLOS like it works as a SARH beam when its not.

Read what CLOS is and how it works.

==

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Command guidance is a type of

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in which a ground station or aircraft relay signals to a

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via

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or through

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and tell the missile where to steer in order to intercept its target. This control may also command the missile to detonate, even if the missile itself has a

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.
==

You are not using the Ka band as a relay or radio control signal to the missile. The brochure is saying the FCR uses its Ka Band to engage and track the target and with its increased accuracy and anti-clutter, use the tracking information for DART ammunition guidance. A separate radio signal is used to send flight commands to the shell.

I am asking where the control antenna station is. Its not a radar per se its a radio communication antenna that needs to be pointed where the shells are at flight. Its like a simple datalink to the shell. It is the radio link used to steer the shell.

Its clear that the transmission antenna for the commands is not on the NA-25 or STIR.

As for a dual band FCR, this has nothing to do with the antenna using both bands simultaneously. It means the solid state transmitter is capable of emitting both X and Ka bands but it doesn't mean both at the same time. There is still only one antenna and only one band is used on one time with the radar switching to one or the other. Its fairly common for late model FCRs to have K-band nowadays for the increased resolution and anti sea clutter, even the Type 347G appears to have so.

 

[Heliox]

You misread the brochure and how CLOS works.

This is what the brochure says.

View attachment 83981


There is no guidance beam. CLOS isn't Semi Active Radar Homing or SARH. You spent an entire post talking CLOS like it works as a SARH beam when its not.

Read what CLOS is and how it works.

==

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Command guidance is a type of

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

in which a ground station or aircraft relay signals to a

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

via

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

or through

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and tell the missile where to steer in order to intercept its target. This control may also command the missile to detonate, even if the missile itself has a

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

.
==

You are not using the Ka band as a relay or radio control signal to the missile. The brochure is saying the FCR uses its Ka Band to engage and track the target and with its increased accuracy and anti-clutter, use the tracking information for DART ammunition guidance. A separate radio signal is used to send flight commands to the shell.

I am asking where the control antenna station is. Its not a radar per se its a radio communication antenna that needs to be pointed where the shells are at flight. Its like a simple datalink to the shell. It is the radio link used to steer the shell.

Its clear that the transmission antenna for the commands is not on the NA-25 or STIR.

As for a dual band FCR, this has nothing to do with the antenna using both bands simultaneously. It means the solid state transmitter is capable of emitting both X and Ka bands but it doesn't mean both at the same time. There is still only one antenna and only one band is used on one time with the radar switching to one or the other. Its fairly common for late model FCRs to have K-band nowadays for the increased resolution and anti sea clutter, even the Type 347G appears to have so.

What is a radar if not a radio transmitter (and receiver)

The Ka band radar cannot be a transmitter providing guidance for the DART? Really? Than what exactly does the Strales guidance system consist of and what is it used for again?

Yes, the Ka-band can be used for targeting resolution but it is also specifically used to form a guidance beam for commanding the DART(s).

You seem to be fixated on a mysterious, seperate, 3rd, unknown "Radio control antenna station"
There is no such thing.

Please, again, from the 2 quotes I previously provided ...

"According to Leonardo, to allow customers to use the latest baseline Super Rapido MF Gun with the DART ammunition and without the need to install the Strales guidance kit on the mount, the Italian group offers the latest generation dual-band (X/Ka) Radar/EO NA-30S Mk2 FCS capable to GUIDE the DART ammunition."

NA-30S Brochure -

The Ka-Band beam is used for guidance.

Poor terminology and explanation on my part aside (I'm trying to catch up on the Ukraine thread which is posting faster than I can read), if you can't accept those quotes and instead choose to fixate on other not quite so relevant bits of the brochure ... I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Heliox]

What is a radar if not a radio transmitter (and receiver)

The Ka band radar cannot be a transmitter providing guidance for the DART? Really? Than what exactly does the Strales guidance system consist of and what is it used for again?

Yes, the Ka-band can be used for targeting resolution but it is also specifically used to form a guidance beam for commanding the DART(s).

You seem to be fixated on a mysterious, seperate, 3rd, unknown "Radio control antenna station"
There is no such thing.

Please, again, from the 2 quotes I previously provided ...

"According to Leonardo, to allow customers to use the latest baseline Super Rapido MF Gun with the DART ammunition and without the need to install the Strales guidance kit on the mount, the Italian group offers the latest generation dual-band (X/Ka) Radar/EO NA-30S Mk2 FCS capable to GUIDE the DART ammunition."

NA-30S Brochure -
View attachment 83983
The Ka-Band beam is used for guidance.

Poor terminology and explanation on my part aside (I'm trying to catch up on the Ukraine thread which is posting faster than I can read), if you can't accept those quotes and instead choose to fixate on other not quite so relevant bits of the brochure ... I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I just want to add that the DART projectile is a beam rider

 

[Tam]

What is a radar if not a radio transmitter (and receiver)

The Ka band radar cannot be a transmitter providing guidance for the DART? Really? Than what exactly does the Strales guidance system consist of and what is it used for again?

Yes, the Ka-band can be used for targeting resolution but it is also specifically used to form a guidance beam for commanding the DART(s).

You seem to be fixated on a mysterious, seperate, 3rd, unknown "Radio control antenna station"
There is no such thing.

Please, again, from the 2 quotes I previously provided ...

"According to Leonardo, to allow customers to use the latest baseline Super Rapido MF Gun with the DART ammunition and without the need to install the Strales guidance kit on the mount, the Italian group offers the latest generation dual-band (X/Ka) Radar/EO NA-30S Mk2 FCS capable to GUIDE the DART ammunition."

NA-30S Brochure -
View attachment 83983
The Ka-Band beam is used for guidance.

Poor terminology and explanation on my part aside (I'm trying to catch up on the Ukraine thread which is posting faster than I can read), if you can't accept those quotes and instead choose to fixate on other not quite so relevant bits of the brochure ... I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

The Strales is not a radar per se.

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It is a radio guidance system. It sends commands by radio to the shell. The FCR still has to track the target.

I am not sure if the article you quoted got Leonardo quoted correctly. Its not mentioned in the NA-30S brochure and the illustration on the brochure still shows the use of Strales.




The entire "sensor head" makes no mention of any kind of shell guidance.

All I see here is the FCR, with the use of Ka band, is capable of generating the tracking data for the DART shells to be used accurately. Ka band itself is not used as a radio control signal to the shells.