055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Lethe]

Good read on type 55 from U.S. Naval War College U.S. Naval War College Digital Commons CMSI China Maritime Reports author include Lyle Goldstein
China Maritime Repor China Maritime Report No. 5: China t No. 5: China's Dreadnought? The PLA dreadnought? The PLA Navy's Type 055 Cruiser and Its Implications for the F ype 055 Cruiser and Its Implications for the Future Maritime Security Environment Daniel Caldwell Joseph Freda Lyle J. Goldstein

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I haven't read beyond the first part because I got triggered by the "055 is some uber capital ship" angle it seems to be pushing. In reality 055 is around 35% larger than Burke IIA/Tico which is entirely in keeping with the worldwide trend whereby modern designs are considerably larger than their predecessors. Nobody looks at Type 45 replacing Type 42 or Type 26 replacing Type 23 and thinks that the Royal Navy is embarked upon some massive expansion. Modern ships are simply bigger than older ships, and 055 is simply a Burke/Tico-level ship designed in and for the 21st century, no more and no less. It is not a capital ship, a dreadnought, a "break from conventional wisdom" or any other such nonsense.

 

[Breadbox]

One would think so. CM-401 for example:

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Diameter is somewhere between 600mm and 750mm, so should fit right into the 0.85m x 0.85m x 9m VLS cells.

It seems to have a shorter range than regular anti-ship missiles, What is the value of anti-ship ballistic missile if not for its range?

 

[latenlazy]

It seems to have a shorter range than regular anti-ship missiles, What is the value of anti-ship ballistic missile if not for its range?

Different attack vector. More attack vectors will strain a target’s anti-missile defenses and better ensure one of your anti-ship missiles can deliver a kill.

 

[Totoro]

Some cruising anti ship missiles have long ranges. Going subsonic, using wings to provide lift is probably more fuel/weight efficient than using a ballistic missile, when talking about missiles that can fit inside the VLS.

The value is speed. Not just for reaction time, which can mean the difference between threatening an enemy ship and having that enemy ship flee before you can engage it. But also for difficulty in intercepting such missiles. It may force the enemy to dedicate more VLS cells to anti ballistic missiles, for defence. Which are quite scarce in numbers as it is, as they're very expensive. And the fact more cells have to carry ABMs mean fewer cells can carry offensive stuff or even more efficient anti-cruising antiship missiles, like ESSMs.

 

[Temstar]

It seems to have a shorter range than regular anti-ship missiles, What is the value of anti-ship ballistic missile if not for its range?

YJ-18 is the normal bread and butter anti-ship and land attack cruise missile for type 055, it has 540km range and carries a 300kg warhead. It's subsonic for most of the flight, accelerating to mach 2-3 on final sprint to the target. By all account it is a very formidable anti ship weapon.

The Chinese VLS standard (GJB 5860-2006) calls for a cell of 0.85m x 0.85m, with three different depth available much like Mark 41. Type 055 has the deepest implementation at 9m, the next deepest is I think 7m and the smallest one is 3.3m is. YJ-18 can also fit into Type 052D's VLS, which is probably 7m.

We don't actually know what range CM-401 has, guesses are anywhere from 300km to 1000km. However in its flight it's going to average mach 4 and on final approach it's mach 6. So it both reaches it's target quicker (despite greater range) as well as harder to intercept due to it's much higher final attack speed. Also look at the current CM-401, it's a very stubby missile and I would guess it would actually fit into a 7m deep VLS cell. A stretched CM-401 that takes advantage of the full 9m cell of Type 055 would be a very high performing missile due to its size. A ship based missile of this size is not currently possible on anything other than a Type 055 because even the Mark 57 of a Zumwalt does not come close the the big VLS cells of the Type 055. Only way to have a bigger missile on a ship at the moment would be to put it into a SSBN.

 

[lcloo]

It seems to have a shorter range than regular anti-ship missiles, What is the value of anti-ship ballistic missile if not for its range?

CM-401 is a missile designed for export, its range is limited by MTCR restriction (Missile Technology Control Regime). 180 miles/ 280km range is the normal maximum range under MTCR.

The Chinese domestic AShM is designated as YJ-XX, and their range is different.

 

[Temstar]

You are now hearing Soviet March from Red Alert 3 playing inside your head.

 

[Tam]

YJ-18 is the normal bread and butter anti-ship and land attack cruise missile for type 055, it has 540km range and carries a 300kg warhead. It's subsonic for most of the flight, accelerating to mach 2-3 on final sprint to the target. By all account it is a very formidable anti ship weapon.

The Chinese VLS standard (GJB 5860-2006) calls for a cell of 0.85m x 0.85m, with three different depth available much like Mark 41. Type 055 has the deepest implementation at 9m, the next deepest is I think 7m and the smallest one is 3.3m is. YJ-18 can also fit into Type 052D's VLS, which is probably 7m.

We don't actually know what range CM-401 has, guesses are anywhere from 300km to 1000km. However in its flight it's going to average mach 4 and on final approach it's mach 6. So it both reaches it's target quicker (despite greater range) as well as harder to intercept due to it's much higher final attack speed. Also look at the current CM-401, it's a very stubby missile and I would guess it would actually fit into a 7m deep VLS cell. A stretched CM-401 that takes advantage of the full 9m cell of Type 055 would be a very high performing missile due to its size. A ship based missile of this size is not currently possible on anything other than a Type 055 because even the Mark 57 of a Zumwalt does not come close the the big VLS cells of the Type 055. Only way to have a bigger missile on a ship at the moment would be to put it into a SSBN.

I would think the antiship version of the YJ-18 won't be the same as the land attack cruise missile version, and it won't be using the YJ designation. The antiship version is essentially a rocket set at the second stage of a cruise missile, like of like you take a Tomahawk, chop much of it except for the engine and fuel, then stick an S-300 missile on it.

The cruise missile version, on the other hand, won't have this rocket but instead is completely a single cruise missile on its own. Instead of a rocket, you have the warhead and guidance system, packed in the blunt nose of a cruise missile. The nature of the antiship missile, being a supersonic rocket as a second stage, calls for the lengthening of the VLS to 9 meters, and indeed the Klub antiship 3M-54E missile which the YJ-18 appears to be heavily inspired from, is already at 8.9 meters. However, the all subsonic cruise missile version, which is only one solid missile not divided into two stages, is only 6.2 meters. A subsonic only sub launched antiship version is also only 6.2 meters. Subsonic only antiship missile versions or subsonic only land attack cruise missiles may well fit within the 7 meter U-VLS. If you look at other countries, Tomahawks are launched from within 6.8 meter Mk. 41 VLS cells while the SCALP cruise missile is launched from the 7 meter version of the Sylver VLS.

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[plawolf]

It seems to have a shorter range than regular anti-ship missiles, What is the value of anti-ship ballistic missile if not for its range?

Ballistic missile has massive speed advantage over conventional cruise missiles to increase the probability of successfully penetrating enemy defences.

The argument that ships don’t tend to carry ballistic missiles because of detection risk is pretty made up. The real reason surface ships didn’t carry ballistic missiles is because no one other than China has developed a AShBM before, where the real value of ballistic missiles lies.

Speed of the missile is meaningless if you lack the accuracy to hit what you are aiming for. That is why ballistic missiles tended to be limited to strategic nuclear roles for the most part.

Earlier Chinese ballistic missiles were designed to punch through Taiwan’s air defences to hit large strategic targets like airfields and bases, but that was a pretty unique scenario as other than Israel, you will not find the concentration of air defences needed to justify using such weapons. And back then China was pretty behind when it came to conventional missile tech, which is why it relied more on its comparatively more advanced ballistic missile tech.

But I don’t think China will bother fielding ballistic missiles on the 055, well not the current generation at any rate.

The existing off-the-shelf export ballistic missiles lack the precision for anti ship use, and I am not sure how much you can scale down AShBMs given the physics involved would mean you need a lot of mass for heat shielding, sensors, controls and advanced communications etc. Unless they forgo the warhead and went with a sheer KE kill vehicle, it’s hard to see them being able to shrink the whole package enough.

Even if they could make it work, that is still going to be a massive undertaking and would take years to develop.

It might be better to wait for hypersonic gliders instead.

 

[iantsai]

the eighth type 055 destroyer was launched today.