055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Tam]

I see a lot of Type 055 and Type 052C/052D Destroyer threads.

1) From my understanding, the Type 055 is independent from the Type 052D (not an upgrade), and both will be built simultaneously. Is this correct?

That is correct.

2) If so, what military value is there from building both at the same time? Is the Type 055 basically a large destroyer, and the type 052D is a medium/small destroyer?

One is a lot more expensive than the other.

One has a lot of new technologies that has yet to be proven in years of operational use. The other is a set of operational proven technologies that already has a number of years of deployment, highly tested and refined. Confucius says, Do not put all your eggs in one basket.

This is only a temporary situation. Production volumes will decrease the price of the Type 055, and as time goes by, numbers go up, the Type 055 will go from the unproven to the proven. I don't believe in rushing production of the Type 055 too fast. They should let the first one or the first few run around, do missions, to help them reveal their operational shortcomings, so they will be fixed, and incorporated into the design level when building more of their sisters.

There was a time this situation was reversed, with the Type 054A the mass production, more affordable model with proven technologies, while the Type 052C/D was the new kid in the block, that is very expensive to make with new, unproven technologies, especially with its large active phase array radars. People thought, they were only going to build two, maybe six at most, of these ships. They did build only six Type 052C, but the mass production of the 052D in much greater numbers wasn't expected.

Maybe years from now, the situation is reversed, the Type 055 will be the small, budget ship with proven technologies that is being mass produced like hamburgers, and there is an even bigger monster on the block that is the new gourmet on the menu. The one constant curve in modern warship trends is that surface warships are constantly growing bigger --- note how the concept of the frigate and destroyer keeps growing in size.

 

[Bhurki]

Maybe years from now, the situation is reversed, the Type 055 will be the small, budget ship with proven technologies that is being mass produced like hamburgers, and there is an even bigger monster on the block that is the new gourmet on the menu. The one constant curve in modern warship trends is that surface warships are constantly growing bigger --- note how the concept of the frigate and destroyer keeps growing in size.

I don't see growing the size of 055 further or other ships classes in general would help now.

The historical growth in size has happened due to the roles of respective classes remaining almost the same but the technologies' increasing footprint.
The reason one would require a 5000t frigate rather than 3000t is because it provides space for more and larger sensors and armament that make it more survivable.

The 055 otoh has most of what you'd like to put on a capital ship. Any larger, and you'll turn it into a prized asset(like Hochseeflotte) that'll be more of liability due to the possibility of it being lost in battle rather than being used to full effect due to its comprehensive suite of sensors.
You wouldn't want to be put out of action due to a single missile contact.

Therefore, i think increase in size is unlikely unless respective classes are laden with extra responsibilities.
Its the same reason i think a super-gorshkov is more likely than the Lider class.

 

[Tam]

I don't see growing the size of 055 further or other ships classes in general would help now.

The historical growth in size has happened due to the roles of respective classes remaining almost the same but the technologies' increasing footprint.
The reason one would require a 5000t frigate rather than 3000t is because it provides space for more and larger sensors and armament that make it more survivable.

The 055 otoh has most of what you'd like to put on a capital ship. Any larger, and you'll turn it into a prized asset(like Hochseeflotte) that'll be more of liability due to the possibility of it being lost in battle rather than being used to full effect due to its comprehensive suite of sensors.
You wouldn't want to be put out of action due to a single missile contact.

Therefore, i think increase in size is unlikely unless respective classes are laden with extra responsibilities.
Its the same reason i think a super-gorshkov is more likely than the Lider class.

The US is considering something called the LSC or Large Surface Combatant.

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Ironically, the interest for a US Large Surface Combatant was spurred by --- the Type 055.

This is like the beginnings of a circular arms and power race. Go back in time and note naval ship developments from the 1900 to 1940, as ships keep growing larger and more powerful as they counter one another. This seems it might be happening again.

 

[Bhurki]

The US is considering something called the LSC or Large Surface Combatant.

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Ironically, the interest for a US Large Surface Combatant was spurred by --- the Type 055.

This is like the beginnings of a circular arms and power race. Go back in time and note naval ship developments from the 1900 to 1940, as ships keep growing larger and more powerful as they counter one another. This seems it might be happening again.

I have read about LSC. Its basically what a zumwalt should've been from the beginning. The size increase in this class is almost solely due to requirement of stealth.
On the other hand, you can also see them pitching for a higher quantity, lower vessel size fleet with distributed capabilities when suggesting Usv etc.
Considering all this, it seems hard to justify a size increase unless the current dimensions don't allow for adding the capabilities that are required forthwith and in future.

 

[11226p]

Ok, so if I got the numbers wrong please correct me but so far there we know of the

• 25 Type 052D batch that is almost fully launched
• 8 Type 055 batch of which 6 are launched

so by the end of this or early next year all of the remaining ships have a good chance of being launched. If the PLAN wants to have a steady flow of 3-4 DDGs launched per year, averaged over a longer period of time, they will need to lay down new ships relatively soon. So here comes the question, do we have somewhat credible rumors/implications etc. of what the next batch/es of destroyers will consist of and possible numbers?

 

[Tam]

I have read about LSC. Its basically what a zumwalt should've been from the beginning. The size increase in this class is almost solely due to requirement of stealth.
On the other hand, you can also see them pitching for a higher quantity, lower vessel size fleet with distributed capabilities when suggesting Usv etc.
Considering all this, it seems hard to justify a size increase unless the current dimensions don't allow for adding the capabilities that are required forthwith and in future.

What they are suggesting is larger than the Zumwalt and the size increase isn't merely about stealth. They also plan to include a VLS of a new design that can incorporate much larger missiles. Sounds familiar.

Things like USVs, drones, larger helicopters, larger missiles, more cells, larger radar arrays, special forces support, larger server rooms, bigger engines, more power generation, more range, more endurance, more refrigeration, lasers, railguns, are pushing the size of the ships. Things will continue to grow bigger when bigger keeps adding to the capability of a ship that is efficient and sustainable, where you get more returns for the relative cost. Maybe ships are growing fewer because of cost and complexity, but each of these fewer ships are far more capable, and at the same time, its much cheaper to operate a navy with fewer but more capable ships. You will know when warships stop increasing their size when each increase in size results in diminishing returns for the cost. But we may not have discovered that point yet.

I am not completely sure about the Jeune Ecole theory, resurrecting it once again as having many smaller ships that are networked in some kind of distributed warfighting theory, which spectacularly ended up badly with the LCS. The result of such theories tend to result in very stunted ships, ranging from all sorts of torpedo boats to torpedo oriented destroyers like with the Imperial Japanese Navy. While at first, IJN destroyers with the Long Lance performed spectacularly, their weakness in ASW and AAW would cost them spectacularly in their inability to protect their convoys and themselves from American aircraft and submarines. I say, always study history.

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China dabbled with the Jeune Ecole theory, with Soviet style missile boats and eventually leading to the Type 022 FAC. Look how quickly that route ended in a dead end while the route of larger, more capable, multirole ships are pursued, leading to the current Chinese Navy. There are still remnants of that theory with the Type 056 corvettes, but how useful are they once the battle has to be played farther and farther from Chinese shores.

You keep trying to make the corvette more capable, leads to frigate sized corvettes.
You want to make frigates more capable, leads to destroyer sized frigates.
You want to make destroyers more capable, leads to cruiser sized destroyers.

 

[Tam]

Ok, so if I got the numbers wrong please correct me but so far there we know of the

• 25 Type 052D batch that is almost fully launched
• 8 Type 055 batch of which 6 are launched

so by the end of this or early next year all of the remaining ships have a good chance of being launched. If the PLAN wants to have a steady flow of 3-4 DDGs launched per year, averaged over a longer period of time, they will need to lay down new ships relatively soon. So here comes the question, do we have somewhat credible rumors/implications etc. of what the next batch/es of destroyers will consist of and possible numbers?

These batches may not be finished yet. Construction of the modules can happen within enclosed factories and sheds around the area. There maybe more ships but they are in pieces that are not recognizable in ship form.

Just my opinion the Type 052D batch may extend to 30, and the 055 batch maybe up to 12.

 

[Bhurki]

There maybe more ships but they are in pieces that are not recognizable in ship form

Well, they better start putting the pieces into recognizable form soon because 2 drydock spaces each in dalian and jiangnan shipyard are empty as of now.

 

[Hadoren]

Thank you for the clarification Tam and Jura. I very much appreciate this.

Another query - What I’ve gathered from my readings and SDF is that submarines and UAV’s seem actually more important than destroyers (please correct me if wrong).

However, the submarine and UAV threads are updated far less. Is that because of lack of information rather than lack of importance?

Destroyers are very visible, and they are always sailing around.

 

[Tyler]

Since when does shipbuilding capacity correlates with population?!

China has the population, size of economy and industrial capacity to build more military ships, if they really want to. Korea has a super-sized shipbuilding industry, compared with other industrialized nations. Military ships are just a small fraction of China's shipbuilding industry, so they can certainly build more.