055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Tam]

Hi all;

I´ve another question about Type 055 class.

Having the Type 052C/D as adequate or better said, useful, the VHF Yagi radar for detecting stealth aircraft, why the Type 055 didn´t fit it?.
Which is, in your oppinion the radar or sensor most useful to detect stealth aircraft aboard the Type 055?.

Here in Spain, we are building the F110 frigate which has an integrated mast with S band and X band radar (very similar to this Type 055), but very lighter. But I have no idea why chinese PLAN have discarded the Yagi antenna aboard Type 055.

Thanks again.

Its a good question.

Maybe the designers of the Type 055 can better answer it. But in my perspective or opinion, there is one answer.

The main Type 346 radar on the 055 is much more powerful than the Type 346 radar on the 052C/D that it doesn't need the VHF array anymore. The Type 346 on the 055 is billed as the 346B version, compared to the 346 without a letter on the 052C, which is the original, and the 346A on the 052D (there should be a 346AG for the second and third batch of 052D.)

I take it that the lack of the VHF array on the 055 is an indicator that the 346B is at a performance level that makes the VHF array redundant.

There are two other indicators that the 055's Type 346B radar is is extremely powerful. One is that the ship has six generators on board the ship. Even assuming the ship has power requirements for the X-band AESA and those huge ECM panels the ship has, that seems to be a lot of electrical power for a ship that isn't integrated electric propulsion.

The second indicator is that the IFF units on the 055 are way bigger and thicker than the IFF units on the 052D. The capabilities of the IFF units needs to match the radars they are serving. If the radar can detect and track these number of units at these ranges, the IFF should be able to reach out and interrogate the same. These IFF units are what you see on top of the bridge vertically from each of the four panels of the radars. I have never seen anything like this on any warship in terms of size, and another thing to mention they are quite thick. The large and thick IFF units on the 055 may indicate they house powerful transmitters that require some kind of forced cooling either liquid or forced air cooling. These units must be able to interrogate a huge number of targets through a huge reach and volume of space, much more than the IFF on the 052D can. The IFF technology on the series have progressively moved from IFF strip within the array in the 052C, to external IFF units on the 052D which allows it to become bigger and allow access to passive air cooling. Now it has led to this.

 

[ougoah]

Is it also true that VHF like Yagi antennas do not give the ability to target or even meaningfully track VLO targets? They can't guide missiles either. Plus having the 055 give up the space and energy for these antennas is sort of redundant as well since they will almost definitely operate as a networked fleet sharing information and having 052C and 052D having this "ability" should be enough for the fleet. Honestly the 346B is probably powerful enough to meaningfully target and provide firing solutions against stealth in decent enough ranges.

I remember recently reading about some Chinese paper or academic disclosing projects where they combine multiple high powered radars and use software to analyse the data and amplify the signature of a VLO target. Modern radars alone can already detect stealth fighters at closer ranges. It's a problem of working out how to find patterns between the information given by many radars to detect them at longer ranges. Anyway if anyone has the paper or the link, please share.

 

[Tam]

Is it also true that VHF like Yagi antennas do not give the ability to target or even meaningfully track VLO targets? They can't guide missiles either. Plus having the 055 give up the space and energy for these antennas is sort of redundant as well since they will almost definitely operate as a networked fleet sharing information and having 052C and 052D having this "ability" should be enough for the fleet. Honestly the 346B is probably powerful enough to meaningfully target and provide firing solutions against stealth in decent enough ranges.

I remember recently reading about some Chinese paper or academic disclosing projects where they combine multiple high powered radars and use software to analyse the data and amplify the signature of a VLO target. Modern radars alone can already detect stealth fighters at closer ranges. It's a problem of working out how to find patterns between the information given by many radars to detect them at longer ranges. Anyway if anyone has the paper or the link, please share.

Its very likely that in the case of the 052C/D, the VHF radar would detect the target, and then direct the Type 346 radars to it. The Type 346 radars will then track it more accurately. Of course, the use of the VHF radars alone can get a more quality track if you have a bunch of 052C/D that is doing CEC with these radars, and that will provide a better tracking picture for the Type 346 radars to home on, and the information among the Type 346 from various ships can be exchanged and fused using CEC.

In the case of the Type 346B, it no longer needs that additional VHF process. I would think that not only is the radar more powerful, but so is its gain and sensitivity in receiving. If the ship has CEC, and I think it has, it would also share that information to other destroyers via CEC.

Here is another question that people should be asking:

Why doesn't the 052D improved just use the Type 055's 346B radar and get rid of the VHF array? The introduction of the new VHF array also surprised me. They bothered to create a new VHF array for the 052D but not on the 055? Why does the improved 052DL still use the VHF array even if that array has been improved?

This is my hypothesis. The 052D cannot use the Type 346B radar of the 055 because it doesn't have the power and cooling requirements for the Type 346B. This strengthens another hypothesis, and the Type 346B radars are using Gallium Nitride. Instead, they choose to improve the VHF radar. So this in other words, is like a patch.

Its possible they can use a sub variant of the Type 346B, smaller, less elements or they put a power limit use to it so it can fit within the 052D's power infrastructure. But a nerfed version of the 346B is also going to be less powerful as a result compared to the 055 version, and may still have to be compensated with a VHF radar. All in all a sub 346B may still be better than the 346A. If they had started to implement this, this would be one of the things we have no visual clues of to detect from the observer side other than hear rumors about it. However, I tend to find the rumor mill to be uninterested on the technical aspects of ships like their fittings, so they don't bother to pass on these things. I am kind of wondering if this was done of the 052DL.

I would be eager to see how the 052E might look as it can either pose or answer more questions.

Will it use the Type 346B radar? Or some sub variant of it.
Will it still use the VHF array?

 

[AndrewS]

Its very likely that in the case of the 052C/D, the VHF radar would detect the target, and then direct the Type 346 radars to it. The Type 346 radars will then track it more accurately. Of course, the use of the VHF radars alone can get a more quality track if you have a bunch of 052C/D that is doing CEC with these radars, and that will provide a better tracking picture for the Type 346 radars to home on, and the information among the Type 346 from various ships can be exchanged and fused using CEC.

In the case of the Type 346B, it no longer needs that additional VHF process. I would think that not only is the radar more powerful, but so is its gain and sensitivity in receiving. If the ship has CEC, and I think it has, it would also share that information to other destroyers via CEC.

Here is another question that people should be asking:

Why doesn't the 052D improved just use the Type 055's 346B radar and get rid of the VHF array? The introduction of the new VHF array also surprised me. They bothered to create a new VHF array for the 052D but not on the 055? Why does the improved 052DL still use the VHF array even if that array has been improved?

This is my hypothesis. The 052D cannot use the Type 346B radar of the 055 because it doesn't have the power and cooling requirements for the Type 346B. This strengthens another hypothesis, and the Type 346B radars are using Gallium Nitride. Instead, they choose to improve the VHF radar. So this in other words, is like a patch.

Its possible they can use a sub variant of the Type 346B, smaller, less elements or they put a power limit use to it so it can fit within the 052D's power infrastructure. But a nerfed version of the 346B is also going to be less powerful as a result compared to the 055 version, and may still have to be compensated with a VHF radar. All in all a sub 346B may still be better than the 346A. If they had started to implement this, this would be one of the things we have no visual clues of to detect from the observer side other than hear rumors about it. However, I tend to find the rumor mill to be uninterested on the technical aspects of ships like their fittings, so they don't bother to pass on these things. I am kind of wondering if this was done of the 052DL.

I would be eager to see how the 052E might look as it can either pose or answer more questions.

Will it use the Type 346B radar? Or some sub variant of it.
Will it still use the VHF array?

What does a warship need to detect with a VHF radar?
The advantage of a VHF radar is anti-stealth - against either incoming missiles or small aircraft.

Remember that the radar horizon (30KM) for a warship at sea level severely limits the usefulness of any radar for long range detection.
At the radar horizon, the S-Band radars should still be able to detect incoming stealth missiles anyway.
And beyond this distance, it would be straightforward for opposing stealth aircraft to fly underneath the radar beams to avoid detection.

So for long-range stealth detection, you want a long-endurance, high-altitude UAV like the Divine Eagle.
It would have a radar horizon of 650KM+ and could be datalinked to ships and aircraft.

A Global Hawk has a unit cost of $131M, so let's say a Divine Eagle costs $200M, given a similar size but with many more radars.
A Type-52D costs $500M and a Type-55 costs $900M. And we can see 34+ ships so far.

So adding Divine Eagle support to a 6-ship SAG (operating in the Western Pacific) is comparatively cheap.
And if you compare the cost of a future Divine Eagle to a stealth fighter or stealth bomber, I expect a minimum of 20+ to be built, which would be more than enough to blanket the Western Pacific - given sufficient fighter protection.

So how useful would additional VHF radars on surface ships really be?
I see the huge amount of electrical generation on a Type-55 as being aimed at primarily aimed at lasers/railguns, rather than for the radars.

This is looking at using a Divine Eagle for fleet defence, but remember the primary mission would be hunting opposing ships and aircraft.

 

[Tam]

What does a warship need to detect with a VHF radar?
The advantage of a VHF radar is anti-stealth - against either incoming missiles or small aircraft.

Remember that the radar horizon (30KM) for a warship at sea level severely limits the usefulness of any radar for long range detection.
At the radar horizon, the S-Band radars should still be able to detect incoming stealth missiles anyway.
And beyond this distance, it would be straightforward for opposing stealth aircraft to fly underneath the radar beams to avoid detection.

Radar horizon only limits your detection abilities against low flying aircraft, drones and missiles. It does not limit your detection abilities from mid to high altitudes. Low altitude is relative, it may still detect the aircraft hundreds of kilometers away if the aircraft is not flying low enough. The longer the range it seems, the less the radar height matters.

You can use this to figure things out hypothetically and compare various radar placements.

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Should not forget that 052C/D and 055 have upper mast radars, like the Type 364 and unnamed four faced X-band on the 055 that can look further at the radar horizon than the main radars.

People also tend to forget the other purpose of metric radar, and that is OTH search, either via backscatter or surface wave propagation.

There is another radar that have been ignored and that is the Type 366. This is the white dome on top of the bridge seen on the 052C/D and 054A. This has over the horizon detection against ships, and is based on the Russian Mineral ME from the Sovs. The difference of the Chinese copy is that it adds the ability to detect sea skimmers over the horizon. Allegedly.

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The Type 055 doesn't have this radar per se, but its functionality may have been subsumed into the four faced X-band radar it has on the mast. May --- or it may have been omitted.

Both 054A, 052C/D and 055 also have some form of passive detection or ESM that has directional finding against the emitter. There are two units left and right just behind the Type 366 on the 052C/D that looks like the naval version of the DWL002:

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There seems to be a new version of this unit seen from the second bath of 052D and above, and on the 055.

There is also something called the Type 366-2, which is part of the Type 366 system. This is passive detection with geolocation or directional finding against ships. Basically, its a copy of the Mineral ME-2. This appears as two white spheres left and right of the 054A's funnel and you can also see a pair under the Type 517M VHF array of the 052C/D.

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Both Type 055 and 056 seems to have omitted this however, although in the case of the 055, I wonder if this functionality is subsumed into its ESM systems. The Type 055 loses a lot of the ESM systems you see on the 052C/D, including 726-1, 726-2 and 366-2, so I wonder if all their functionality is consolidated into its sole pair of ESM units near the base of the mast. (Its covered from the angled wall but you see the top of them). Its possible that on the 055, active and passive OTH (Type 366/Mineral ME functionality) against ships may have been deleted for aerial and drone spotting.

So for long-range stealth detection, you want a long-endurance, high-altitude UAV like the Divine Eagle.
It would have a radar horizon of 650KM+ and could be datalinked to ships and aircraft.

A Global Hawk has a unit cost of $131M, so let's say a Divine Eagle costs $200M, given a similar size but with many more radars.
A Type-52D costs $500M and a Type-55 costs $900M. And we can see 34+ ships so far.

So adding Divine Eagle support to a 6-ship SAG (operating in the Western Pacific) is comparatively cheap.
And if you compare the cost of a future Divine Eagle to a stealth fighter or stealth bomber, I expect a minimum of 20+ to be built, which would be more than enough to blanket the Western Pacific - given sufficient fighter protection.

So how useful would additional VHF radars on surface ships really be?
I see the huge amount of electrical generation on a Type-55 as being aimed at primarily aimed at lasers/railguns, rather than for the radars.

This is looking at using a Divine Eagle for fleet defence, but remember the primary mission would be hunting opposing ships and aircraft.

I don't see the electrical generation for the Type 055 used for lasers and railguns when the ship itself doesn't have any right now and won't be for years to come, and its not certain 100% the PLAN would sign on and certify them to risk this kind of high investment right now. Far too forward thinking to be practical. Their tactical usefulness may still be arguable --- they are not very useful if you still can't see the enemy. So its more important to sense the enemy first before you can fire on them.

The Type 055 doesn't have any VHF radars. All that electrical power maybe going for the main and auxiliary radars, as well as the ECM.

Divine Eagle will supplement in the detection, but its not going to replace the ship's own sensor systems. Divine Eagle cannot serve as direct fire control for the ship's weapons, it can only tell where the ship's sensors where to look and track. The ship's own sensors still have to directly handle the fire control.

 

[Juan B.]

Its possible they can use a sub variant of the Type 346B, smaller, less elements or they put a power limit use to it so it can fit within the 052D's power infrastructure. But a nerfed version of the 346B is also going to be less powerful as a result compared to the 055 version, and may still have to be compensated with a VHF radar. All in all a sub 346B may still be better than the 346A. If they had started to implement this, this would be one of the things we have no visual clues of to detect from the observer side other than hear rumors about it. However, I tend to find the rumor mill to be uninterested on the technical aspects of ships like their fittings, so they don't bother to pass on these things. I am kind of wondering if this was done of the 052DL.

I would be eager to see how the 052E might look as it can either pose or answer more questions.

Will it use the Type 346B radar? Or some sub variant of it.
Will it still use the VHF array?

I´ve read before that low frequency radars can bounce in the atmosphere and turn back to land, increasing the radar horizon. It´s a phisycal effect of these low frequency radars that has been taken in advance by russians, ucrainians and even iranians for their very large VHF radar sites.

So mixing your argument that the Type 346 and A version of the previous Luyang series are much lower powered than the Type 346B, probably the Yagi antennas are covering a very large range radar detection and the Type 346 a medium and short range, but the B series of Renhai would be so powerful than all radar ranges are relied upon the Type 346B itself.

But I´m not physicist, so I´m entering in a speculative argument.

 

[AndrewS]

Yes, but realistically, how useful is it for a destroyer to detect a long-range VHF contact?

The destroyer doesn't have SAMs with a long enough range to engage.
And all an aircraft has to do is go under the radar horizon to disappear.

As for lasers, I don't think it will be too long.
The first Arleigh Burke has already had a laser retrofitted.

Radar horizon only limits your detection abilities against low flying aircraft, drones and missiles. It does not limit your detection abilities from mid to high altitudes. Low altitude is relative, it may still detect the aircraft hundreds of kilometers away if the aircraft is not flying low enough. The longer the range it seems, the less the radar height matters.

You can use this to figure things out hypothetically and compare various radar placements.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Should not forget that 052C/D and 055 have upper mast radars, like the Type 364 and unnamed four faced X-band on the 055 that can look further at the radar horizon than the main radars.

People also tend to forget the other purpose of metric radar, and that is OTH search, either via backscatter or surface wave propagation.

There is another radar that have been ignored and that is the Type 366. This is the white dome on top of the bridge seen on the 052C/D and 054A. This has over the horizon detection against ships, and is based on the Russian Mineral ME from the Sovs. The difference of the Chinese copy is that it adds the ability to detect sea skimmers over the horizon. Allegedly.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The Type 055 doesn't have this radar per se, but its functionality may have been subsumed into the four faced X-band radar it has on the mast. May --- or it may have been omitted.

Both 054A, 052C/D and 055 also have some form of passive detection or ESM that has directional finding against the emitter. There are two units left and right just behind the Type 366 on the 052C/D that looks like the naval version of the DWL002:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

There seems to be a new version of this unit seen from the second bath of 052D and above, and on the 055.

There is also something called the Type 366-2, which is part of the Type 366 system. This is passive detection with geolocation or directional finding against ships. Basically, its a copy of the Mineral ME-2. This appears as two white spheres left and right of the 054A's funnel and you can also see a pair under the Type 517M VHF array of the 052C/D.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Both Type 055 and 056 seems to have omitted this however, although in the case of the 055, I wonder if this functionality is subsumed into its ESM systems. The Type 055 loses a lot of the ESM systems you see on the 052C/D, including 726-1, 726-2 and 366-2, so I wonder if all their functionality is consolidated into its sole pair of ESM units near the base of the mast. (Its covered from the angled wall but you see the top of them). Its possible that on the 055, active and passive OTH (Type 366/Mineral ME functionality) against ships may have been deleted for aerial and drone spotting.




I don't see the electrical generation for the Type 055 used for lasers and railguns when the ship itself doesn't have any right now and won't be for years to come, and its not certain 100% the PLAN would sign on and certify them to risk this kind of high investment right now. Far too forward thinking to be practical. Their tactical usefulness may still be arguable --- they are not very useful if you still can't see the enemy. So its more important to sense the enemy first before you can fire on them.

The Type 055 doesn't have any VHF radars. All that electrical power maybe going for the main and auxiliary radars, as well as the ECM.

Divine Eagle will supplement in the detection, but its not going to replace the ship's own sensor systems. Divine Eagle cannot serve as direct fire control for the ship's weapons, it can only tell where the ship's sensors where to look and track. The ship's own sensors still have to directly handle the fire control.

 

[Tetrach]

thinking about it, who do surface ships see ships over the horizon ? do we have to automatically use AWACS etc ?

 

[Tam]

I´ve read before that low frequency radars can bounce in the atmosphere and turn back to land, increasing the radar horizon. It´s a phisycal effect of these low frequency radars that has been taken in advance by russians, ucrainians and even iranians for their very large VHF radar sites.

So mixing your argument that the Type 346 and A version of the previous Luyang series are much lower powered than the Type 346B, probably the Yagi antennas are covering a very large range radar detection and the Type 346 a medium and short range, but the B series of Renhai would be so powerful than all radar ranges are relied upon the Type 346B itself.

But I´m not physicist, so I´m entering in a speculative argument.

That's basically it.

 

[Tam]

thinking about it, who do surface ships see ships over the horizon ? do we have to automatically use AWACS etc ?

Without using aircraft, warships do it passively by ESM. Meaning they detect the communication and radar signals emitted from the other ship. You exploit certain skywave propagation phenomena:



Which is why being so radio noisy and leaky is bad, and radio discipline is needed. In the case of the 052C/D, usage of VHF can also risk the ship being detected.

Ships can also be picked up by land based OTH far into the sea but its not the quality you can target missiles with.

You would still need aircraft to properly ID, position and range the target. All these OTH does is tell where the aircraft to look for.

However you can passively target a ship beyond the horizon and send long range anti ship missiles.

US:

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Russia:

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Where the US and Russia differs is that the Russians specifically create actively targeting radars that go over the horizon using Duct Propagation (see the first picture thumbnail) and see Mineral ME link. China bought the first two Sovs to help learn how this works, and in addition, they imported two sets of this for the 052B and 051C. At some point this was copied into the Type 366, which is used with the 054A, 052C and D.

Chinese refer to this as MOTH (Microwave Over the Horizon).

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Example of radar that uses MOTH. That radar above you can visually identify as the one used on the Type 022 FAC. Its also similar in design on the one used on the Type 056 so I am wondering if that ship has MOTH to enable use of its YJ-83 over the horizon. In addition the 056 does have ESM and datalink for aircraft communications. This is in lieu that the ship does not have the Type 366 set. Of course there is always the real possibility that the 056 may have decide to omit this capability. And so does the 051B refit, a destroyer that lacks the Type 366.

Another research paper on using much shorter radio waves for communicating OTH via the atmospheric duct.

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However I think the problem of OTH is the problem of identification, along with more precise location and ranging. The more loose the location of a target is, the anti ship missiles would need to search for it, which means it can be forced to fly higher or conduct a search pattern, and in so doing, risks earlier detection and shot down. You want a very precise target location so you can only activate the anti ship missile's radar at the very last moment to achieve the highest surprise possible, as the antiship missile's own radar can be used to warn the target using ESM via radar warning receiver.

Since the Type 055 deconstructed the use of known PLAN radars (Type 364, 366 and 344) aside from the Type 346B, its much harder to guess what its capabilities except to assume that its new X-band radar set assumes the functionality of the Type 344, 364 and 366 radars. But will it still have MOTH? That's another question. Maybe the ship will rely purely on airborne CEC for its antiship role.