055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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Besides China, Russia and India, the place that has the most supersonic antiship missiles --- primarily designed against the PLAN at that --- is that place next door to China. Taiwan. They have developed their own, the Hsiung Feng III, they have been making it and they plan to make a lot more. They can deploy them from small stealthy corvettes to hidden coastal batteries. Preempting the land ones by ballistic missiles would be most difficult, as Taiwan disguises their TELs like commercial delivery trucks and shipping containers.
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The Russians are not helping. They want to sell their Project 22800 corvettes to the South East Asian region, and those things could pack Oniks or Klubs. The Indians are also looking to sell Brahmos to South East Asia, and they would fit into those 22800 corvettes.

Well the USA does have the ESSM which can do Mach 4+ with 50km+ range. Also theoretically a lot of air-to-air missiles can be reconfigured for surface-to-surface operation. The problem is the USA does not have any fast missile which is cost effective at ranges larger than the ESSM's.

With regards to those Russian corvettes that are armed to the teeth, they seem like a great solution for Southeast Asian navies to counter Chinese and other advanced naval powers. If their rivers are wide enough, and there are a lot of rivers in Southeast Asia, they can easily move their forces and retreat to places inland where they can be more easily concealed than a regular corvette. Yet still conduct Mach 3+ strikes at a distance.
 

Tam

Brigadier
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Well the USA does have the ESSM which can do Mach 4+ with 50km+ range. Also theoretically a lot of air-to-air missiles can be reconfigured for surface-to-surface operation. The problem is the USA does not have any fast missile which is cost effective at ranges larger than the ESSM's.

The Shtil-1 marketing brochure also lists their missiles capable of Mach 4+ with 50km range, but also lists maximum target speed (airborne) at 820 or 850 meters per second, which is Mach 2.5. ESSM does not mention anything. You have to decide if the Shtil-1 marketing brochure is telling the truth too as public information may not be what the real performance is plus also account how much similar or different the HHQ-16 from the Shtil-1.

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SHTIL-4.jpg Shtil-1_2.jpg

China has the option of developing the SD-50, which is the export name and has been deployed to some customers, as the DK-10, for a medium ranged SAM that can be quad packed. In addition this missile has an ARH guidance system. China also has the option of copying or licensing the Russian 9M96 family of missiles, also known as Vityaz, Redut or S-350. These missiles can be quad packed into an S-300 canister on land, their naval version has a dedicated VLS on its own, although I don't see this type having any problems being quad packed into the UKSK VLS. These family of missiles comes in a number of lengths, which will also determine the range.

Another possibility is that China maybe developing a naval VLS version of the PL-15 AAM, skipping the SD-50/DK-10 missile, which is based on the previous generation PL-12 AAM. China also has some kind of VLRAAM in development and testing

The US has the SM-2 beyond the ESSM, Block III for medium range, Block IV and SM-6 for extended ranges. The Block IV and SM-6 missiles are much longer and heavier, double the weight at least. SM-2 Block III is about the same size and weight as the Shtil and the HQ-16 missile, has the same guidance type but has more range, with the latest version having IR added as a dual seeker. Not many Block IV are deployed, its replaced by SM-6, which is an expensive missile, said to be 3 to 4 million each, but however has an ARH seeker and can sink a boat too. This is as heavy as the S-300/400 missiles, even heavier than the HQ-9, which is said to be 1300kg and belongs in the large category of SAMs.

Gives you an official, pocket summary on the Standard missiles.

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With regards to those Russian corvettes that are armed to the teeth, they seem like a great solution for Southeast Asian navies to counter Chinese and other advanced naval powers. If their rivers are wide enough, and there are a lot of rivers in Southeast Asia, they can easily move their forces and retreat to places inland where they can be more easily concealed than a regular corvette. Yet still conduct Mach 3+ strikes at a distance.

Its a stealthy beast too. However, they will need aircraft to find the targets, which again justifies having LRSAM or carrier with long range fighters on patrol.

22800.jpg
 

ougoah

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Yes. These larger SAMs have a greater chance of taking down a threat missile. As I pointed out the HQ-16 may have a limitation not being able to engage an airborne target over Mach 2.5, while the HQ-9 might be able to still engage even over Mach 3. The HQ-16 may not shot down the Oniks, but the HQ-9 can.

SAMs take down two ways. Either direct impact or proximity explosion. The effectiveness of the latter depends on how big the explosion is, and its pattern, which is even carefully engineered by the direction of the blast. The HQ-10 can have as much as 150 to 180kg of warhead, while the HQ-16 is about 62 to 70kg, and the HQ-10 about 10 to 11kg. You may need launch more of the smaller missiles to take down the same threat.

The larger SAMs have the range potential to take down a plane before it can launch its missiles. Longer ranges means it can protect more of a fleet under a bubble instead of just itself. Ships like the Type 054A and 056 may need cover against threats their SAMs cannot reach. Its also likely that the ships may also be tasked in the defense of the homeland to strike down incoming cruise missiles before they hit land targets such as those in the coast. If you have larger AD bubbles, they can be combined and overlapped. If you have smaller bubbles, offensive threats can pass through the space between the bubbles.

Finally, SAMs do have the ability to strike surface targets, like secondary anti-ship missiles. When used in this regard, an HQ-10 will have more punch than an HQ-16.

PLAN started as a fleet with nothing but short range air defenses. The HQ-61 and HQ-7 predated everything and they only acted as a short range missile defense only. They bought the Sovremennyy to have their first taste of a medium range air defense, liked it, and copied the systems there, even bought the same ADS for the Type 052B. They bought RIF-Ms for their first long range air defense and installed them on the Type 051C. Then comes the Type 052C and 052D, now the Type 055. The evolutionary trend of PLAN's ADS is to increase range and reach.

Shtil and HHQ-16 are both over mach 4 speeds. If advertisements show ability to intercept targets with speeds over mach 2, that should indicate at least the ability to intercept lower end supersonic missiles. More or less similar speeds and engagement capabilities to ESSM and SM-2. The problem with HHQ-16 then is the range and size for only 50 odd km of range, compared to SM-2. What missiles can intercept depends more on the direction of incoming missile and launch location. It could easily intercept a far higher speed AShM if the incoming missile is heading straight towards HHQ-16. The issue is seeker, sensors, software reaction, and g-limit if relative velocities allow for physical intercept i.e. it is geometrically possible.

What PLAN needs is improve the range of HHQ-16 to match something like SM-2 if they are going to waste the space of a cell for HHQ-16. They may be to do this by changing rocket motor and fuel type or improve the structure and weight of the missile. If not, develop 50km range navalised PL-15 that can be quad packed. If performance parameters are equal or superior, there would be zero point for HHQ-16 on any ship (unless ship cannot be equipped with navalised PL-15).

PLAN does have navalised PL-12 (DK-10) available but we don't know whether PLAN is equipping them in numbers. Perhaps they are waiting until PL-15 version is ready. For now HHQ-16 and HHQ-9 combo with CIWS is decent enough combo for fleet air defense and ship self-defense. As explained earlier, the real work is in attacking opponent's launching platforms so subs and halo weapons are slightly higher priorities. Until these offensive weapons can be developed, tested, and fielded in decent numbers, air defense will more or less stay static, maybe with some new additions of ship launched BMD.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well the USA does have the ESSM which can do Mach 4+ with 50km+ range. Also theoretically a lot of air-to-air missiles can be reconfigured for surface-to-surface operation. The problem is the USA does not have any fast missile which is cost effective at ranges larger than the ESSM's.

With regards to those Russian corvettes that are armed to the teeth, they seem like a great solution for Southeast Asian navies to counter Chinese and other advanced naval powers. If their rivers are wide enough, and there are a lot of rivers in Southeast Asia, they can easily move their forces and retreat to places inland where they can be more easily concealed than a regular corvette. Yet still conduct Mach 3+ strikes at a distance.

Two points

It's impossible to have a cost-effective missile which is long-range and fast. If you want speed and range, you need a big expensive missile.

If China gets into a conflict with a South East Asian Navy, the Chinese Navy and Air Force can just standoff and blockade or conduct air strikes.
There's no need for the Chinese Navy to get close to an enemy coastline, since there isn't going to be an amphibious invasion.

Remember that China would be able to obtain air superiority over any of the South East Asian countries pretty easily.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Shtil and HHQ-16 are both over mach 4 speeds. If advertisements show ability to intercept targets with speeds over mach 2, that should indicate at least the ability to intercept lower end supersonic missiles. More or less similar speeds and engagement capabilities to ESSM and SM-2. The problem with HHQ-16 then is the range and size for only 50 odd km of range, compared to SM-2. What missiles can intercept depends more on the direction of incoming missile and launch location. It could easily intercept a far higher speed AShM if the incoming missile is heading straight towards HHQ-16. The issue is seeker, sensors, software reaction, and g-limit if relative velocities allow for physical intercept i.e. it is geometrically possible.

What PLAN needs is improve the range of HHQ-16 to match something like SM-2 if they are going to waste the space of a cell for HHQ-16. They may be to do this by changing rocket motor and fuel type or improve the structure and weight of the missile. If not, develop 50km range navalised PL-15 that can be quad packed. If performance parameters are equal or superior, there would be zero point for HHQ-16 on any ship (unless ship cannot be equipped with navalised PL-15).

PLAN does have navalised PL-12 (DK-10) available but we don't know whether PLAN is equipping them in numbers. Perhaps they are waiting until PL-15 version is ready. For now HHQ-16 and HHQ-9 combo with CIWS is decent enough combo for fleet air defense and ship self-defense. As explained earlier, the real work is in attacking opponent's launching platforms so subs and halo weapons are slightly higher priorities. Until these offensive weapons can be developed, tested, and fielded in decent numbers, air defense will more or less stay static, maybe with some new additions of ship launched BMD.

I think larger numbers of shorter-range quad-packed missiles is the way to go. At least the defensive missile launch cost will be less than the incoming missile.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I have never seen any evidence of this. Where is your source for this statement.

I think you misinterpreted my statement which is understandable since it wasn't expressed clearly enough but I thought the meaning was clear. DK-10 as a surface to air missile is an available missile for PLAN to navalise as a potential alternative to HHQ-16. One that comes with significant space savings provided it gets developed to be quad packable and can be equipped on PLAN ships. I should have stated this has not been shown to have already been tested but the system offers a potential alternative. The fact we do not see PLAN ships equipping this does not mean it is not doable or hasn't been done but it could mean it is not desirable or a better alternative could be eventually available in a navalised PL-15 SAM. HHQ-16 most likely takes up an entire cell so it would be more ideal if HHQ-16 range is either improved or quad packed SAMS are developed to fill the performance expectations of HHQ-16 as a viable space saving future alternative to what PLAN ships currently rely on for ~50km range targets.
 
now noticed the tweet
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Hello... World...

DnT-MZwV4AADBIg.jpg

***
oops only now noticed what looks like the same view already posted:

29680120557_2c5227f2b7_o.jpg


#6100 by78, Tuesday at 5:33 PM

which I at first missed due off-topic traffic, to which I have contributed
LOL!
 
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