055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Iron Man]

Keep in mind comparing it using that picture is not the best as neither 055 in that picture has its hull complete from bow to aft. By the looks of it there are still a few blocks missing at the tip of the bow that will likely extend its bow a few more meters.

That said, I'm surprised you got 185m. Using satellite pics of JNCX and finding a pic showing the full completed 1st hull before it was launched and comparing it to an 052D, I got an estimate of about 180m.

You shouldn't exactly be "surprised" because both of your "estimates" use grainy photos with unclear end points, so using your estimate to debunk his estimate would be presumptuous at this early stage. That said it's less likely to be 185m IMO and more likely to be in the range of 175-180m.

 

[Blitzo]

You shouldn't exactly be "surprised" because both of your "estimates" use grainy photos with unclear end points, so using your estimate to debunk his estimate would be presumptuous at this early stage. That said it's less likely to be 185m IMO and more likely to be in the range of 175-180m.

Your opinion is noted, but I respectfully disagree.

I remain surprised.

 

[Richard Santos]

The key point here is "very silent".

So far the Chinese have simply not been able to produce a new SSN that is within a generation or two of the vessels like the Virginia and Astute, etc.

When they do, and if it is a time frame where it begins to really compete with the latest generation US vessels, then what you say will certainly be true.

We just have not seen it yet.

They don't have to be as silent as the quietest submarines in the world to fulfill their strategic role.

Submarines in the 1970s were already so quiet that at slow to moderate speeds that they are essentially undetectable to any modern acoustic methods. The competition since then has been how to make submarines equally quiet at higher speeds.

If the Chinese attack submarines are not being used as ASW assets against American subs, then they do not have to match the silence of the Seawolf or Virginia at 22 knots. So long as they can remain undetectable at 10-12 knots they can creep past any USN ASW cordon and retain enormous potential to pose insurmountable headaches for the USN as a broad Threat everywhere in the pacific or Indian Ocean.

This is a key, not only is submarine a tool of asymmetrical warfare against the surface navy, they are a tool of asymmetrical warfare even against other submarines, so long as their job is not to go one on one after other submarines.

 

[SinoSoldier]

They don't have to be as silent as the quietest submarines in the world to fulfill their strategic role.

Submarines in the 1970s were already so quiet that at slow to moderate speeds that they are essentially undetectable to any modern acoustic methods. The competition since then has been how to make submarines equally quiet at higher speeds.

If the Chinese attack submarines are not being used as ASW assets against American subs, then they do not have to match the silence of the Seawolf or Virginia at 22 knots. So long as they can remain undetectable at 10-12 knots they can creep past any USN ASW cordon and retain enormous potential to pose insurmountable headaches for the USN as a broad Threat everywhere in the pacific or Indian Ocean.

Yeah, but that would mean the 095 wouldn't be able to keep up with a CBG unless it is willing to risk being tracked. China is building SSNs to complement carriers rather than to have them act as "lone wolfs" I think.

 

[Richard Santos]

Yeah, but that would mean the 095 wouldn't be able to keep up with a CBG unless it is willing to risk being tracked. China is building SSNs to complement carriers rather than to have them act as "lone wolfs" I think.

It can keep us, just not quietly. Furthermore the cCBG won't be running at maximum speed most of the time. Most of the time the screening submarine with insufficient silent speed to keep up quietly can adopt the sprint and lurk approach where it overtakes the CBG By running at 30+ knots, slow to silent speed, lurk, listen for threats, then sprint again. Keep in mind Submarines only has to be really quiet if they try to get somewhere undetected.

Submarines screening a CBG are not trying to sneak somewhere undetected. The CBG advertises its presence with sound of surface ships no air operation. The enemy already knows there can be enemy submarines near by when they hear a CBG coming. Yes, the noise perhaps allows the enemy sub to better pin point the precise location of the screening sub. But the screening sub is likely operating with aerial ASW support from the carrier. It's not like the enemy can freely use information from the screening sub's noise to attack the screening submarine as if it were alone. Any effort to kill the screening sub likely betray the attacking sub to other components of the carrier's ASW screen, and expose it to a combined arms counterattack and potentially makes it impossible for the attacking sub to fulfill its primary mission.

In addition, even the fact that the silent enemy submarine has a more precise fix on a sprinting and lurking screening sub is not an insurmountable advantage for the screening sub. The screening sub knows the enemy already knows where it is. It can freely use active sonar to pin down the more silent enemy sub.

 

[Iron Man]

New image dated 20170807

View attachment 41202

Now if you were to use this photo for a measurement comparison, you would get a 055 length of 172m. The error here is maybe +/- 1m ROFLMAO

 

[Blitzo]

Now if you were to use this photo for a measurement comparison, you would get a 055 length of 172m. The error here is maybe +/- 1m ROFLMAO

View attachment 41209

Correct, and such a length is expected given we can see the 055's bow is obviously incomplete as it is missing the upper levels of the bow, as I wrote previously to Prior.

Once DL's 055 reaches a similar state of completion to the JNCX 055 in April-May this year we can do a similar measurement to what was done for JNCX, assuming they still have an 052D conveniently alongside it.

 

[sanblvd]

They don't have to be as silent as the quietest submarines in the world to fulfill their strategic role.

Submarines in the 1970s were already so quiet that at slow to moderate speeds that they are essentially undetectable to any modern acoustic methods. The competition since then has been how to make submarines equally quiet at higher speeds.

If the Chinese attack submarines are not being used as ASW assets against American subs, then they do not have to match the silence of the Seawolf or Virginia at 22 knots. So long as they can remain undetectable at 10-12 knots they can creep past any USN ASW cordon and retain enormous potential to pose insurmountable headaches for the USN as a broad Threat everywhere in the pacific or Indian Ocean.

This is a key, not only is submarine a tool of asymmetrical warfare against the surface navy, they are a tool of asymmetrical warfare even against other submarines, so long as their job is not to go one on one after other submarines.

Fully agreed, this is why SSBN are the ultimate deterrence for any country, it just have to secretly unlock at night, and showboat to get to where it needs to go and just sit there or move very slowly for the next 6 month on mission patrol.

 

[AndrewS]

Fully agreed, this is why SSBN are the ultimate deterrence for any country, it just have to secretly unlock at night, and showboat to get to where it needs to go and just sit there or move very slowly for the next 6 month on mission patrol.

I think SSBNs are useful, but also distinctly vulnerable because if you lose one, it is a huge portion of the nuclear deterrent.

It would be better? to have a number of road-mobile missiles that can disperse and hide over China's landmass which is the same size as the continental USA.

 

[Iron Man]

I think SSBNs are useful, but also distinctly vulnerable because if you lose one, it is a huge portion of the nuclear deterrent.

It would be better? to have a number of road-mobile missiles that can disperse and hide over China's landmass which is the same size as the continental USA.

The problem is that they wouldn't be dispersed over the entirety of China, only the eastern portion of China, and mostly the northeastern portion, otherwise the missiles wouldn't have the range to strike the continental US or have the civilian and environmental cover to hide in.