055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[chuck731]

I think they really wouldn't need type 055 until they are prepared to make long term deployment of carrier task forces outside east and south china seas. I don't foresee that until the late 2020s at the earliest.

 

[Jeff Head]

I have to say, I know exactly how all the enthusiasts feel about the day you will see the Type 055 launched and finally in the water.

The rumor is that at Jiangnan the PLAN will start building one as soon as the first four Type 052Ds are completed being built there, and while four more Type 052Ds start building at Dalian. We will just have to wait and see if that occurs.

But, I do know exactly how you are going to feel when it does happen, because that is exactly how I feel right now since this baby has now been launched and is in the water.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[FarkTypeSoldier]

I think they really wouldn't need type 055 until they are prepared to make long term deployment of carrier task forces outside east and south china seas. I don't foresee that until the late 2020s at the earliest.

Why not? At the speed of building up the carrier force, wont it make sense to at least get a one ship of 055 built and trial first, then modify the rest of the classes into model B or C to suit the additional requirements?

 

[drunkmunky]

The Zumwalt still has a lot of development work that needs to be done before it is the threat that the US navy claim it to be.

Pretty sure the Type 55 will also be a project-in-motion work-in-progress type development.

I can't really see the PLAN moving on it though unless there are significant engine performance developments...

 

[Blitzo]

I think they really wouldn't need type 055 until they are prepared to make long term deployment of carrier task forces outside east and south china seas. I don't foresee that until the late 2020s at the earliest.

We should recognize that a PLAN CVBG or any large taskforce needs to be very very capable of defending itself compared to CVBGs of other navies. That unfortunately is purely becaus the PLAN faces a very formidable array of competitors, including that of the USN, JMSDF, the Indian Navy and Air Force, all of which have powerful or will be in the process of acquiring powerful surface strike capability.

For example the UK may get away with escorting a CVF with just two type 45s and an astute SSN, the French can get way with a couple of horizons/FREMM and a few la Fayettes. I would not be confident with the PLAN only escorting a carrier with two 054As and two 052C/Ds — even if such a CVBG would be among the most powerful in the world.
Even in SCS and ECS, they would need cruisers to remain survivable.
Quiet nuclear submarines are necessary too.

 

[joshuatree]

The Zumwalt still has a lot of development work that needs to be done before it is the threat that the US navy claim it to be.

Pretty sure the Type 55 will also be a project-in-motion work-in-progress type development.

I can't really see the PLAN moving on it though unless there are significant engine performance developments...

The Chinese Navy is at a different stage and developing at its own separate pace. An 055 development can be considered it's "Zumwalt" project. I think we're all too spoiled in the last few years watching the Chinese shipyards crank out serial production of different types in volumes of 10+. While 052Ds are serial produced, there's no conflict or overlap if just a handful of 055s are produced to test and push design boundaries for the Chinese Navy much like Zumwalt is for the US Navy.

We should recognize that a PLAN CVBG or any large taskforce needs to be very very capable of defending itself compared to CVBGs of other navies. That unfortunately is purely becaus the PLAN faces a very formidable array of competitors, including that of the USN, JMSDF, the Indian Navy and Air Force, all of which have powerful or will be in the process of acquiring powerful surface strike capability.

For example the UK may get away with escorting a CVF with just two type 45s and an astute SSN, the French can get way with a couple of horizons/FREMM and a few la Fayettes. I would not be confident with the PLAN only escorting a carrier with two 054As and two 052C/Ds — even if such a CVBG would be among the most powerful in the world.
Even in SCS and ECS, they would need cruisers to remain survivable.
Quiet nuclear submarines are necessary too.

Would one or two 055s provide better defense depth to a CN CVBG vs let's say four 052Ds? In the SCS and ECS, a CN CVBG can still have additional land based assets to provide additional coverage. I would say 055 advantage protecting a CVBG is only distinctively noticeable if the CVBG is deployed far abroad. I don't really see the CVBG as the main driving need for an 055. Rather, it is the need for single yet highly capable CN surface assets deployed far abroad that drives the need for an 055. Think of situations like Libya or a country in Africa where there is significant Chinese interests.

 

[Blitzo]

The Chinese Navy is at a different stage and developing at its own separate pace. An 055 development can be considered it's "Zumwalt" project. I think we're all too spoiled in the last few years watching the Chinese shipyards crank out serial production of different types in volumes of 10+. While 052Ds are serial produced, there's no conflict or overlap if just a handful of 055s are produced to test and push design boundaries for the Chinese Navy much like Zumwalt is for the US Navy.

On the contrary, would there be a need for China to acquire a handful of high cost high technology ships that will inevitably have low availability?

We may have been "spoiled" in the last few years with regards to the PLAN's "rapid" acquisition of new and vastly more powerful ships than what they have been previously armed with. But the fact that we are "spoiled" is testament to how obsolete the preceding ships were. The US in the same amount of time as China's modernization, has put to sea far greater tonnages of new naval ships, and that is what the PLAN is competing with, but with the added driver that more than half of their surface force is still obsolete.
The question now is whether all the old 037s will be replaced with 056s, whether the old Jianghus and Jiangweis will be replaced by 054A and/or a notional 054B, and whether all the old 051s (and even 051B, and the two 052s) will end up being replaced with 052Ds as well.

Assuming that the PLAN retires its ships on a one to one basis based on age rather than capability (e.g.: one 052C does not replace two 051s, which is the trend we've seen up to now), then you have to start wondering whether a blue water force of purely 052C/Ds and 054As is desirable.

Would one or two 055s provide better defense depth to a CN CVBG vs let's say four 052Ds? In the SCS and ECS, a CN CVBG can still have additional land based assets to provide additional coverage. I would say 055 advantage protecting a CVBG is only distinctively noticeable if the CVBG is deployed far abroad. I don't really see the CVBG as the main driving need for an 055. Rather, it is the need for single yet highly capable CN surface assets deployed far abroad that drives the need for an 055. Think of situations like Libya or a country in Africa where there is significant Chinese interests.

The primary benefits a CG provides over a DDG is missile protection, more powerful command control capabilities. And yes, its size also means greater endurance, probably more comfortable crew quarters, as well as room for future proofing.
A CG can indeed deploy by itself to far seas missions such as in the indian ocean or off the coast off africa, but in context of the PLAN, such a ship's primary rationale will be taskforce defense.

Would two 055s provide better defense to a PLAN CVBG than 4 052Ds? I think that's the wrong question to ask.
Let's look at this another way -- an 055 may cost far more, maybe even twice as more than an 052D, and may take longer to fully build, but a single 055 will also also have less crew requirements than two 052Ds, while also providing additional command capabilities. Let's pretend an 055 has double 052D's VLS capability for sake of argument.
It would also require less resources to put an 055 into service than two 052Ds, and probably less shipyard time too. For instance, I expect when JNCX starts construction, it will not take 055 twice as long to enter service from steel cutting compared to two 052Ds. Probably more like 1.5 times longer than a single 052D at most. My point is that the benefits of a ship being twice as large, having twice the armament, doesn't translate to suffering from taking twice as long to commission (even if it is twice as expensive).
Factors such as cost, armament, size, commissioning time, availability are all factors one must consider, and they do not travel in a strictly linear way as ship size increases. So to answer your question, depending on how 055 fares in the above variables compared to 052D, then yes, perhaps 055 may definitely provide better defense to a PLAN CVBG than 4 052Ds.

How many 055s versus 052Ds versus 054A/B the PLAN acquires is another matter entirely. The USN is a prime example of how a massive top heavy CG/DDG surface fleet can hinder overall fleet numbers and availability, as they lack large numbers of frigates and have tried to shoehorn LCS into a "low cost, medium capability, blue water" role, but is really a "high cost, low capability, blue water" ship instead.

 

[joshuatree]

On the contrary, would there be a need for China to acquire a handful of high cost high technology ships that will inevitably have low availability?

The answer would be yes. Clearly China is not ready to serial produce 055s, thus only 052Ds. And you've identified the Chinese Navy as having quite an inventory of obsolete ships. So serial productions of 056, 054A, 052D is the catchup aspect. But what platform is pushing the technological envelope to further increase the overall modernization and capability of the CN? That's where acquiring a few 055s come into play. Some of the developments there could even reverse flow back into an 052E. When the 055s mature to a point where they are in serial production, it probably be 055Bs or even 055Cs.

It would also require less resources to put an 055 into service than two 052Ds, and probably less shipyard time too.

That's not a given if you're projecting the 055 to have more powerful command control capabilities with double the VLS cells. There's also the propulsion system and sonar to consider if the 055 is supposed to be superior in all aspects to the 052D.

I just don't see a CVBG deployed anytime soon in the Indian Ocean or off the coast of Africa anytime soon but a single or pair of frigate/destroyers yes. As you've already acknowledged, the 055 is suppose to offer better endurance and capability which is why I see the single, distant solo missions as more of the driving need for 055 development than CVBG needs. Let's not forget the carrier itself offers CCC in a battle group as well. Nothing prevents what CCC is developed in the 055 program to be installed on the Liaoning. Anyway, that's just my $0.02. Cheers.

 

[Blitzo]

The answer would be yes. Clearly China is not ready to serial produce 055s, thus only 052Ds. And you've identified the Chinese Navy as having quite an inventory of obsolete ships. So serial productions of 056, 054A, 052D is the catchup aspect. But what platform is pushing the technological envelope to further increase the overall modernization and capability of the CN? That's where acquiring a few 055s come into play. Some of the developments there could even reverse flow back into an 052E. When the 055s mature to a point where they are in serial production, it probably be 055Bs or even 055Cs.

That entirely depends on how advanced 055 is.

052D introduced a new VLS, an arguably new radar and a new main gun, probably among a host of other internal electronics and processing changes as well, yet the PLAN are confident enough to serially produce them off the bat.
Depending on how advanced 055 is (and no one expects a PLAN zumwalt), they could very well serially produce 055s.

The only major challenge I foresee would be propulsion, and that's only if the ship uses IEPS.
Yet the UK serially produced Type 45, and that was using a new propulsion system for the Royal Navy too.

The trend for future combatants is to orient to a "payloads" strategy -- that is to say, a relatively conventional and even old hull design, if stocked with more modern subsystems, will still be a competitive ship.
So you don't need to produce a pair of super expensive Zumwalt like 055s to make a generational leap over existing capabilities, but rather you can develop one subsystem and then another and integrate them onto each new ship as needed, thus providing less risk for each ship class, as well as less lag time between construction of new vessels leading to less depreciation of fleet numbers.

That's not a given if you're projecting the 055 to have more powerful command control capabilities with double the VLS cells. There's also the propulsion system and sonar to consider if the 055 is supposed to be superior in all aspects to the 052D.

Yes, but all new ships inevitably introduce new systems and subsystems, yet that hasn't dissuaded most other nations to serially produce new vessels. Zumwalt is actually in serial production, but they're only stopping at 3 because of cost. If 055 reuses a host of existing subsystems as rumoured (namely radar, gun, ciws, VLS) that could dramatically shorten development, especially compared to ships which use all new subsystems like Zumwalt and Type 45, and indeed Type 052C.

I just don't see a CVBG deployed anytime soon in the Indian Ocean or off the coast of Africa anytime soon but a single or pair of frigate/destroyers yes. As you've already acknowledged, the 055 is suppose to offer better endurance and capability which is why I see the single, distant solo missions as more of the driving need for 055 development than CVBG needs. Let's not forget the carrier itself offers CCC in a battle group as well. Nothing prevents what CCC is developed in the 055 program to be installed on the Liaoning. Anyway, that's just my $0.02. Cheers.

I see, I have a few points:
Yes, CGs inevitably offer greater endurance and range over DDGs, but their main advantage is additional firepower and command/control and having provision for an admiral to plant his flag. It is the latter aspects of capability the PLAN would be interested in.
Also, even if the PLAN is deploying a CVBG off the coast of africa, they technically don't need a cruiser -- that is to say, with refuelling and resupply, FFGs and DDGs can last as long as a CG. What a CG offers in spades is greater combat capability, better C2, etc which I've already listed. A notional 055 is only necessary for a future fleet because of the highly capable enemies the PLAN are expected to face, both regionally within the second island chain and globally as well.
There is also no need for the PLAN to send a 12,000 ton CG to Aden as part of a two ship flotilla. Such a taskforce would only be used to combat pirates, and you don't need such a ship to intercept and check out longboats. A pair of 054As can do the job just as good and more cost effectively.


Another way to look at why the PLAN needs larger ships is simply to look at why regional navies like ROKN and JMSDF acquire such large aegis destroyers like sejong, kongo and atago. They acquire them for their combat capability, not for their endurance. They don't face pressing global commitments or even global foes, and will only operate locally in any conflict relevant to their nations. Yes they can do patrols of aden for extended periods in two ship or even single ship taskforces, but will they? There's no reason to when smaller destroyers can do the job just as well.
That same rationale works for the PLAN. Only difference is, the PLAN will actually seek to project power dramatically more as the 21st century progresses, but again, that doesn't entail a need for CGs as DDGs and even FFGs can last on deployments equally as long.

Basically, I believe your premise as to why PLAN needs CGs is a bit flawed, but I'd be open to hear clarifications if my perception was incorrect

 

[Jeff Head]

Great discussion Bltizo and Joshuatree, this is why SD is one of the best places on the net for naval matters.

I maintain my own feeling that the PLAN really does not need a Type 055 yet. That does not mean they will not need or build them eventually.

However, I firmly believe for their existing order of battle and circumstances, that continuing with serial production of Type 052Ds and Type 054A/Bs will fufill their needs very adequately and allow them to stabilize their training and their operational policies and procedure for single ship deployments, for SAGs, and for developing their CSG strategy.

Just the same, the "chatter," about a Type 055 being built after the four current Type 052Ds are completed, with another four Type 052Ds being built in Dalian is quite prominent.

We will soon see if it is also true.