055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[kwaigonegin]

Do you suggest that 052D would have been wider if China had available stronger gas turbines and that 055 will be made possible either by new stronger gas turbines or by using more of the same turbines and IPS?

no I think 052D was just a evolutionary step up from the C thus the basic hull remained the same. The 052D came into being mainly because of advancement in sensors etc like the APARs, firecontrol system and weapons like the main gun.
The 055 will most definitely have more powerful propulsion and will likely have a wider hull. That to me is the most important thing because you can always upgrade sensors and weapon systems to a certain extent but the hull and propulsion system is pretty much it. You have to get those things right in order future proof your vessel.

Nowadays you don't just build ships with what is available today.. you build ships to be able to handle what you think you will have 20 yrs from now which means lots of power or ability to accomodate more power and a lot of space. As an example naval helicopters are getting bigger and bigger as well. You build hangers as big as you can and not just barely enough to fit what you have today (which in most navies is a helo designed in the 1970s or 80s). USN is going to larger flight decks and I think PLAN is following the trend as well in the next generation of warships.

 

[Jeff Head]

The 055 will most definitely have more powerful propulsion and will likely have a wider hull

That to me is the most important thing because you can always upgrade sensors and weapon systems to a certain extent but the hull and propulsion system is pretty much it. You have to get those things right in order future proof your vessel..

I agree 100%. I believe it will be at least 10 feet wider. The Type 052C and D are 56 feet wide. I believe the Type 055 will be 65 feet wide or wider.

As an example naval helicopters are getting bigger and bigger as well. You build hangers as big as you can and not just barely enough to fit what you have today (which in most navies is a helo designed in the 1970s or 80s). USN is going to larger flight decks and I think PLAN is following the trend as well in the next generation of warships.

Exactly. Both the Ticos and particularly the Burkes have been built with growth and expansion in mind. With the Burke IIIs we are going to reach the limit of that those hulls can do (designed in the 70s and begun producing in the 80s). They will max on on propulsion, sensors, and probably weapons (thoush a small rail gun for them is still in the offing).

The US has needed to prepare with the DDX and the CGX for some time now. The Zumwalts (which were initially the DDX, then DDG21, and finally DDG-1000), are BIG and those babies are going to be around a long time precisely because they do have so much room for growth built into them.

I expect come the late 2020s that the US will be seriously looking at the next gen DDG and CG seriously in terms of getting ready to build them. The Burke III will buy that much time. Will it be based on the Zumwalt? Who knows? If the Zumwalts come along and are a great success, both in their technological capabilities but also in their handling, then I expect we may see other vessels derived from them.

The PLAN, when they go to the Type 055, will need to take the same considerations into account. I still personally do no see the immediate need for the vessel. They have time to get more experience with their new Type 052Ds and their Type 054As...and perhaps Type 054Bs. The Type 052Ds, if built in some numbers, will provide the escorts they need for the time being as they are cutting their teeth with the Carriers and the large Amphibs.

 

[Blitzo]

To reverse USN surface combatant fortunes, they'll need to either reverse the gradual decline of their budget (this may change by the 2020s), or make their military procurements a little more streamlined (JSF, LCS and zumwalt itself have all blossomed in cost), or allow the technologies on zumwalt mature and hopefully become cheaper to build, or better yet, all three.

I read somewhere that a zumwalt with AMDR would cost something like twice more than a flight iii burke with AMDR, and that flight iii burke will not have significant hull changes from flight iia, meaning probably the same number of VLS - 96, which is naturally a shrink from the 128 of ticos.

However we should see the larger picture and recognise the USN still has the most powerful destroyer/cruiser fleet in the world and probably will going into the latter half of this century, and that is even if they "only" end up building three zumwalt sand "only" have flight iii burkes replacing ticos. Indeed I can't help but look back at post Cold War proposals of CGX and DD-21/SC-21 and shake my head, thinking the navy must have been either naive or ambitious (probably both) I thinking they could buy such numbers of ships with such a generational leap in stealth, propulsion, electronics and armament.

If the USN really wants a serious new cruiser with large AMDR, they should look at the San Antonio based arsenal ship. More than enough space for a massive 20 foot AMDR, room for hundreds of VLS, and provision for future rail guns as well, all on a proven and large hull. Continue their Flight iii burke buy, and then purchase a half dozen San Antonio based arsenal ships, and that will do them well for the next few decades.
PLAN should look into a similar project for their 071s, alongside 055s.

 

[kwaigonegin]

I agree 100%. I believe it will be at least 10 feet wider. The Type 052C and D are 56 feet wide. I believe the Type 055 will be 65 feet wide or wider.

Exactly. Both the Ticos and particularly the Burkes have been built with growth and expansion in mind. With the Burke IIIs we are going to reach the limit of that those hulls can do (designed in the 70s and begun producing in the 80s). They will max on on propulsion, sensors, and probably weapons (thoush a small rail gun for them is still in the offing).

I think you meant the Zumwalt because I think the Ticos is about as much as you can squeeze out of her. Her hull is based on the Spruance class whose design dates back to the late 60s or early 70s.

 

[Jeff Head]

I think you meant the Zumwalt because I think the Ticos is about as much as you can squeeze out of her. Her hull is based on the Spruance class whose design dates back to the late 60s or early 70s.

Nah, I meant the Tico. When built, the Tico, was desinge to be able to add future technologies. That was a part of the consideration for the Spruance Hull upon which it was based (as you say). And yes, it is now near the end of that cycle, but they have kept updating them since their builds and this has allowed them to remain the preiminent air-defense cruiser that they are. A major design consideration at the time was the ability to be able to be upgraded.

Same with the Burkes, though they came along later and benefited from the new hull design, which continues to serve tham and will allow them to proceed now on to the Burke Flight III vessels which will again upgrade their capabilities.

The Zumwalt class is a, "right here and now," example of it...and they will have a lot of room to grow over the next fifty years.

As to Bltizo's recommendation for the Flight II LPD hull. I would not expect the AMDR to go in there. Rather, they would probably go with the full DBR that the Fords are getting, which are also scalable and start out more powerful. There is merit to having one of those type ships, outfitted with either 194 or 256 VLS cells (which lean heavily towards air defense) and adequate self defense (I am thinking two RAMs, two ESSM launchers, and two CIWS, like the carriers), with each CSG or ARG. The hulls are already proven, it would get more return out of that design, and they are certainly big enough to allow for adequate technology growth.

For all of those reasons they are being considered. The only draw back is their speed. I believe however a few more knots could be squeezed out of them.

 

[Blitzo]

I think the only problems with zumwalt is the price tag not only of redesigning the space (would they end up throwing away one AGS, or replace both with just a single AGS-L or even a Mk-45, to make space for more VLS? Wouldl those VLS be Mk-41 or 57, because 57 is optimized for periphery placement and two 4 cell modules takes up more space than a single 8 cell Mk-41 module), but also in simply producing the new technologies. Naturally price tags drop over the course of serial production, but it will still be more expensive than a more conservative option like Flight III burke.

But then we return to flight iii burke's inherent limitations, etc etc.

USN might end up using zumwalt's hull, but at this stage it doesn't look likely.
I think they're better off designing a new hull entirely -- one that isn't too stealthy where it would drive up costs (like zumwalt) but also have space to fully power AMDR and a decent cruiser sized VLS count, while having ability to be refit with a moderate number of future weapons like laser ciws and a single railgun mount, instead of being too small to be future proof (like burke flight iii).

Basically, USN should develop their own 12,000 ton, 128 VLS cell, IEPS powered cruiser, i.e.: 055.

 

[Jeff Head]

I think the only problems with zumwalt is the price tag not only of redesigning the space (would they end up throwing away one AGS, or replace both with just a single AGS-L or even a Mk-45, to make space for more VLS?

Zumwalt will most certainly keep two gun mounts. What they will do, when it is ready, will be to replace the AGS with a similar sized rail gun. First one mount, and later maybe the second.

In addition, it is probable that once the LaWS is powerful enough to be used against missiles and those types of threats, I expect the Zumwalt will get a couple of those lasers as well.

Those are the types of technology advancements you will see deployed aboard the Zumwalt, along with upgrading/upscaling her sensors as new technologies and capabilities come along. She may ultimately get an appropriately scaled AMDR but that will depend on how well her SPY-3 does.

 

[Blitzo]

Ah sorry, I meant using zumwalt as the hull for a notional CGX

 

[antiterror13]

I'd argue having double the VLS, more C4I facilities, having room to refit newer weapons like rail guns and lasers (if IEPS is present), room for an admiral to plant his flag, and better living conditions are all valid improvements an 055 would bring

Agree, roughly 2x firepower of 052D but perhaps only 25% more crew ... much better living condition

 

[Schumacher]

The timing of 055 will coincide with the build up of PLAN carrier forces. For now, as some said, 2 052D is better than 1 055 as they can be at more places at one time etc.
But as a carrier escort, you obviously need only be at 1 place ie by the side of the carrier. That's when 055 will be needed.
PLAN currently don't need massive firepower now either to defend a carrier or to launch massive cruise missile strikes on the other side of the world like what USN often do. They have enough land/air launched cruise missiles to launch at potential regional opponents now.