055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Mirabo]

People here call themselves China spotters and dont know who RAJ47 is? Seriously?

Next you tell me you dont know who Deino is as well.

I rest my case. We will see.

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

That being said, let's try not to put too much weight on what analysts say. Here we like to take information DIRECTLY from the original Chinese sources and form our own conclusions based on that.

That's not to say that analysts shouldn't be trusted, as I do respect those who devote their brainpower to such topics. However, if something doesn't make sense, it SHOULD be questioned, like what this RAJ47 person is suggesting about the 055's gun mount. Can he even read Chinese to translate the big shrimps' messages for himself? I'm a native speaker and often it gets confusing even for me!

So far, there has been barely any news from the big shrimps regarding the gun mount. Any speculation from analysts is just that: speculation. Until the big shrimps clarify, at which point I will hopefully be around to translate their cryptic messages, there is nothing more to say on the matter.

 

[Blitzo]

You've got nothing except speculation from another fanboi. Yes we will see.

Raj47 most definitely is not a fanboy... and not a PLA fanboy at least.


Calling other people fanboys especially if you don't know them very well (or at all) isn't very good etiquette either, come on.

I personally don't think that the evidence for a gun shroud is that compelling yet to a degree that I would stake my own reputation on the line for it, but I do think Raj47 puts forward a respectable hypothesis.



As for "speculation from another fanboi" -- I would hazard to say that all of us who have been here more than four or five years would be very cautious about adapting that kind of mindset for new developments. There are all too many projects today that we know which exist which in the earliest years first manifested as "fanboy" rumours, observations or speculation.

But I agree -- exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. But I think suggesting that 055 may have a shroud for its main gun is hardly that exceptional of a claim, and it is not like RAJ47 or Insignius are saying it will definitely happen, merely that it is a real possibility.

 

[Tyloe]

055 isn't designed to sit on a foreign coast to fill fire support. Even if you add the programming to AGS style gun to strike seagoing targets, you won't touch anything of high value with only 150km.

052D's 130mm gun does its job just fine with available PGMs. It's cheaper and readily available to CSIS.

 

[Blitzo]

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

That being said, let's try not to put too much weight on what analysts say. Here we like to take information DIRECTLY from the original Chinese sources and form our own conclusions based on that.

That's not to say that analysts shouldn't be trusted, as I do respect those who devote their brainpower to such topics. However, if something doesn't make sense, it SHOULD be questioned, like what this RAJ47 person is suggesting about the 055's gun mount. Can he even read Chinese to translate the big shrimps' messages for himself? I'm a native speaker and often it gets confusing even for me!

So far, there has been barely any news from the big shrimps regarding the gun mount. Any speculation from analysts is just that: speculation. Until the big shrimps clarify, at which point I will hopefully be around to translate their cryptic messages, there is nothing more to say on the matter.

I agree, the gold standard is obviously Chinese sources.

But I think the suggestion that 055 may have a gun shroud is not something which is that big of a deal. I doubt either Insignius or RAJ47 fully believe it will definitely happen, but rather that it is a possibility. Combined with the most recent picture of 055's bow under construction which looks like it may have the front part of what looks like a gun shroud makes me think the possibility should be worth entertaining -- even if I personally don't think it will happen.


I consider this gun shroud thing to be like the speculation late last year about whether 055 would feature an enclosed foredeck, in that time before we had clear pictures of the bow confirming it was true.
It was baseless speculation about whether a relatively minor design detail which we had no indication from big shrimps on, and some people (I think maybe mwyrum? can't remember) suggested that China hasn't demonstrated the design on previous ships so it wouldn't happen on 055, and some of us I think suggested otherwise (I think I did, or at least I thought it) because it was a relatively minor area of design that the Chinese shipbuilding industry could master without much trouble.

 

[Blitzo]

055 isn't designed to sit on a foreign coast to fill fire support. Even if you add the programming to AGS style gun to strike seagoing targets, you won't touch anything of high value with only 150km.

052D's 130mm gun does its job just fine with available PGMs. It's cheaper and readily available to CSIS.

Insignius wrote his original comment a bit errorneously I think.

AGS style gun (aka gun with shroud) =/= gun with similar capability to AGS.

Even in the case of raj47, the original discussion over on CDF revolved around the presence of a gun shroud.


This entire discussion should less be about whether 055's gun will be "similar to AGS" (whatever that means!) and more about: gun shroud, possibility, yes/no?
In this case, a natural tangent from this is say, the idea of the 130mm PJ-38 turret having a gun shroud on 055.

 

[Mirabo]

I agree, the gold standard is obviously Chinese sources.

But I think the suggestion that 055 may have a gun shroud is not something which is that big of a deal. I doubt either Insignius or RAJ47 fully believe it will definitely happen, but rather that it is a possibility. Combined with the most recent picture of 055's bow under construction which looks like it may have the front part of what looks like a gun shroud makes me think the possibility should be worth entertaining -- even if I personally don't think it will happen.


I consider this gun shroud thing to be like the speculation late last year about whether 055 would feature an enclosed foredeck, in that time before we had clear pictures of the bow confirming it was true.
It was baseless speculation about whether a relatively minor design detail which we had no indication from big shrimps on, and some people (I think maybe mwyrum? can't remember) suggested that China hasn't demonstrated the design on previous ships so it wouldn't happen on 055, and some of us I think suggested otherwise (I think I did, or at least I thought it) because it was a relatively minor area of design that the Chinese shipbuilding industry could master without much trouble.

I understand what you mean, and I agree.

What I take issue with is the fact that some people take completely irrelevant and illogical details (i.e. boxy enclosure on the deck, rectangular hole in hull) and try to pass them off as evidence to support the stealth enclosure argument when logically neither of these details are evidence of anything!

Speculation is not wrong, but using false evidence to try and justify mere speculation, is.

 

[Iron Man]

But I think suggesting that 055 may have a shroud for its main gun is hardly that exceptional of a claim, and it is not like RAJ47 or Insignius are saying it will definitely happen, merely that it is a real possibility.

Let's get real, we aren't really talking about a barrel shroud here. Yes, reducing the speculation to merely that of some kind of new "shroud" is certainly uncontroversial and would hardly get anyone's juices going, but we are really talking about an AGS-type gun here, not just the shroud it comes in.

055 isn't designed to sit on a foreign coast to fill fire support. Even if you add the programming to AGS style gun to strike seagoing targets, you won't touch anything of high value with only 150km.

052D's 130mm gun does its job just fine with available PGMs. It's cheaper and readily available to CSIS.

This is exactly right. The fact that PLAN has no obvious requirement for this kind of gun and the lack of mention of any kind of PLAN long range naval artillery makes an AGS idle speculation at best.

I consider this gun shroud thing to be like the speculation late last year about whether 055 would feature an enclosed foredeck, in that time before we had clear pictures of the bow confirming it was true.
It was baseless speculation about whether a relatively minor design detail which we had no indication from big shrimps on, and some people (I think maybe mwyrum? can't remember) suggested that China hasn't demonstrated the design on previous ships so it wouldn't happen on 055, and some of us I think suggested otherwise (I think I did, or at least I thought it) because it was a relatively minor area of design that the Chinese shipbuilding industry could master without much trouble.

It should have been obvious to anyone looking at the Wuhan mockup that a clean foredeck was in the works. I was thinking clean foredeck the second I first laid eyes on the mockup and saw how high (or rather low) off the deck the CIWS and main gun were.

 

[Blitzo]

I understand what you mean, and I agree.

What I take issue with is the fact that some people take completely irrelevant and illogical details (i.e. boxy enclosure on the deck, rectangular hole in hull) and try to pass them off as evidence to support the stealth enclosure argument when logically neither of these details are evidence of anything!

Speculation is not wrong, but using false evidence to try and justify mere speculation, is.

I agree, I think the presence of a potentially square hole for the gun for 055 is not a significantly strong indicator for a gun shroud, however RAJ47 is also right in pointing out the difference in hole geometry is dissmilar to the PJ-38's gun opening on 052Ds. Whether that's indicative of anything is another matter.
And when we combine the satellite image with the image of the bow from the ground, then I think it's fair to say that we have some photos which suggests something may be up.

 

[kwaigonegin]

It's for the same reason that some fourth-generation fighters were designed with some stealth features to reduce RCS. It doesn't have a high degree of stealth as a primary feature, but every bit helps.

Even ships like the Type 052D, which while not a "true" stealth ship like the Zumwalt, can be considered "stealthier" than, say, an Arleigh Burke because of the relative lack of "jumble" and the abundance of flat, angular surfaces that deflect radio waves.

In other words, stealth isn't an all-or-nothing type of deal. The Zumwalt is a ship that takes RCS reduction to the extreme. Other warships have RCS-reducing features, just not to the same extent that the Zumwalt does. An enclosed gun mount is just another stealthy feature with no real downside, so there's no reason why the 055 shouldn't have one if it could.

I understand your argument and certainly agree that RCS consist of the sum of all parts therefore each part plays an individual role.

With that being said my argument was in regards to the enclosure itself on whether it gives a meaningful reduction to the total RCS of the 055 that justifies additional costs, additional moving parts, additional engineering and other overhead.

Nothing is free and there is no such thing as not having a downside.. Everything has a downside. The question is if it's worth it or in this case gives a meaningful reduction in RCS to make any difference. In my view there may be other things that may contribute in a more meaningful manner than the enclosure.

 

[Blitzo]

Let's get real, we aren't really talking about a barrel shroud here. Yes, reducing the speculation to merely that of some kind of new "shroud" is certainly uncontroversial and would hardly get anyone's juices going, but we are really talking about an AGS-type gun here, not just the shroud it comes in.

I am real -- and I think both raj47 and insignius do not really know what they're talking about when they refer to "AGS-type".
I.e.: is it a new gun entirely or a gun shroud, or an AGS type gun shroud etc?

Because for many people when they think "AGS" they think "stealthy gun shroud". I don't assume that people immediately understand it also encompasses "advanced ammunition resupply system" and "new navy calibre with dedicated type of long range guided shell" or "requirement of high sustained firing rate for NGFS".
Especially knowing raj47 as I do through his many posts over on CDF.

Even in raj's original twitter post he mentioned the 055 as maybe having "new stealthy gun just like

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enclosed advance gun system". And then goes on to say, calibre as "130/155mm" which I think any reasonable person would interpret as meaning the same gun as 052D (130mm) or maybe a new gun (155mm). Obviously out of the two one is more realistic than the other.
But for the purposes of comparison to "AGS" is he talking about having the same calibre and similar characteristics to AGS, or merely just 130mm having a similar stealthy, AGS type shroud? Taking the tweet as a whole, I interpret the latter.

It should have been obvious to anyone looking at the Wuhan mockup that a clean foredeck was in the works. I was thinking clean foredeck the second I first laid eyes on the mockup and saw how high (or rather low) off the deck the CIWS and main gun were.

Well that would've had to assume that the level of the wuhan mock up's foredeck was meant to be representative of the same level as 055, which we only really received strong indication/confirmation of once we had clear pictures of the bow a few months ago.

But I digress.