055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[chuck731]

This discussion about what's in the Zumwalt is getting far off topic. We have no idea whether 055 will be similar to the Zumwalt, we can't even be sure it is a serious project.

 

[Jeff Head]

This discussion about what's in the Zumwalt is getting far off topic. We have no idea whether 055 will be similar to the Zumwalt, we can't even be sure it is a serious project.

You are correct. While discussing some of the general technology employed on the Zumwalt could be germain to a discussion about a future Type055 PLAN cruiser, we are getting too deep into the weeds and those specific about the SMC and CIC are better suited for the DDG 1000 thread for sure.

Back on topic then.

GlobalSecurity, a well known and respected site on World Wide Security Technology and forces, itself has a page dedicated to the Type 055 project the PLAN is supposedly working on:

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The PLAN seeks to push its maritime defense perimeter further seaward. This change in operations will require newer, more modern warships and submarines capable of operating out to the Ryukyu Islands and into the South China Sea. At these extended ranges, the platforms will have to be better armed to enable defense from all methods of attack. The Navy has been conducting research and acquiring foreign technology in an effort to improve the broad range of naval warfare capabilities; it also is acquiring new classes of ships that will be better suited for operations out to the limits of the East and South China Seas.

The PLAN continues to have long-standing concerns about its capability to engage enemy aircraft, cruise missiles and precision-guided munitions. This problem is becoming more significant as the Navy strives to operate away from the protection of land-based air defenses. PLAN surface combatants have a limited, and primarily self-defense, anti-air warfare (AAW) capability. Only about twelve of its destroyers and frigates are outfitted with SAM systems; the others are armed only with AAA and possibly man-portable air defense systems.

In addition, PLAN warships lacked the modern air surveillance systems and data links required for area air defense missions. The combination of short-range weapons and lack of modern surveillance systems limits the PLAN to self-defense and point-defense anti-air warfare only. Consequently, except in unusual circumstances, no PLAN ship is capable of conducting air defense of another ship. Additionally, the PLAN could not reliably defend against either current or projected anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCM).

There has been some speculation that a new design would be constructed with a 10,000 ton displacement. This might be equipped with the "Rif" Naval S-300 system, which utilizes a single Tombstone phased array radar, in a vertical launching system (VLS).

Since late 2012, Chinese military forums began discussion of a new Type 055 missile destroyer. Sources reported top161.cn that the design of the destroyer has been completed. The destroyer was to have better stealth design with low noise, infrared and electromagnetic characteristics. It was said to have a new generation of multi-module active phased array radar with a range of 600 km able to monitor and control several hundred targets and automatically distribute targets to various combat units (including the destroyer itself and other combat units), and a joint combat data distribution transmission system similar to the Link-16

Now, I take issue with some of the specifics of this report by GS. It takes most of its technical data from a single reference source:

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Which was published in January 2013 and makes some fantastic claims that I find not to be plausible for the PLAN.

I have no doubt that the PLAN naval planners are looking into a larger vessel, with more VLS cells, an even stronger radar, etc. But I also see the PLAN building Type 052Ds very quickly which are, IMHO, very decent multi-mission destroyers with a strong area coverage AAW capability. I believe they are going to continue to build them in serial production.

We have not seen any Type 055 construction yet...and I wonder at the need for the PLAN top so quickly have the Type 054A FFGs, perhaps Type 054B FFGs, the Type 052C DGs, the Type 052D DDGs and the Type 055 all coming on board at the same time.

I believe it is going to be some time yet before we actually see a Type 055 vessel.

 

[plawolf]

You are correct. While discussing some of the general technology employed on the Zumwalt could be germain to a discussion about a future Type055 PLAN cruiser, we are getting too deep into the weeds and those specific about the SMC and CIC are better suited for the DDG 1000 thread for sure.

Back on topic then.

GlobalSecurity, a well known and respected site on World Wide Security Technology and forces, itself has a page dedicated to the Type 055 project the PLAN is supposedly working on:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Now, I take issue with some of the specifics of this report by GS. It takes most of its technical data from a single reference source:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Which was published in January 2013 and makes some fantastic claims that I find not to be plausible for the PLAN.

I have no doubt that the PLAN naval planners are looking into a larger vessel, with more VLS cells, an even stronger radar, etc. But I also see the PLAN building Type 052Ds very quickly which are, IMHO, very decent multi-mission destroyers with a strong area coverage AAW capability. I believe they are going to continue to build them in serial production.

We have not seen any Type 055 construction yet...and I wonder at the need for the PLAN top so quickly have the Type 054A FFGs, perhaps Type 054B FFGs, the Type 052C DGs, the Type 052D DDGs and the Type 055 all coming on board at the same time.

I believe it is going to be some time yet before we actually see a Type 055 vessel.

Seriously Jeff, since when has GlobalSecurity been anything but a joke when it comes to Chinese defence news?

I am having trouble understanding how you could take what they say seriously when the short passage you quoted is packed with errors and looks at least a decade out of date.

The other link you gave seems to be from the opposite end of the spectrum and is just as unreliable with some fantastical and frankly, delusional sounding claims about what the 055 might be packing.

Right now, we don't even know for 100% if there is an 055 project. Its a safe bet that the PLAN is working on their next gen of warships, but there is no actual guarantee that we will see anything for some time, especially with the 052D not even having been handed over to the navy yet.

Unless the 055 is to pack something truly revolutionary compared to the 052D, it would not actually be hard to see the PLAN brass deferring the project until such time as it does offer something significantly beyond what the 052Ds are carrying, perhaps when next gen weapons like railguns and laser CIWS are operationally feasible.

This is because if all the 055 is is the same CCL VLS and similar PAR and other systems and weapons as what the 052D has but only slightly bigger/more packed into a bigger hull, well, it could be argued that the PLAN would be better off just using the money that would have gone into 055 development and production and just buying more 052Ds instead. 3 052Ds may cost the same as 2 055s and carry a similar load of missiles, but the 052Ds would be able to engage more targets at the same time, be more places at the same time, and also be able to handle attrition better compared to the 055.

 

[Jeff Head]

Seriously Jeff, since when has GlobalSecurity been anything but a joke when it comes to Chinese defence news?

I am having trouble understanding how you could take what they say seriously when the short passage you quoted is packed with errors and looks at least a decade out of date.

The other link you gave seems to be from the opposite end of the spectrum and is just as unreliable with some fantastical and frankly, delusional sounding claims about what the 055 might be packing.

3 052Ds may cost the same as 2 055s and carry a similar load of missiles, but the 052Ds would be able to engage more targets at the same time, be more places at the same time, and also be able to handle attrition better compared to the 055.

Global Security is in fact well respected in naval technology and fleet status terms. I never claimed it was specifically respected with regards to Chinese developments (,many western sites are way off and behind in what I going on in China)...but they have listed the Type 055.

I then pointed out that the specifics they were using were something I took issue with, and then pointed to the source that they used...which accounted for many of those errors/misconceptions from my point.

My major point was to simply say that Global Security has also taken note of the Type 055...which means despite all of the fan boy, all of the nay saying, etc. that is out there, they felt it worthy of comment.

And, in the end, I indicated (which you seem to be agreeing with), that right now the PLAN really has no need for a Type 055 and that I expect to continue to see Type 052Ds be produced instead of a Type 055.

 

[Blitzo]

Global security isn't exactly a credible source I agree, and that fanboy site it credits is even worse. Some of the claims are indeed quite ridiculous, but others again (from other places) are quite feasible.


I think there have been enough persistent mutterings of an 055 emerging "soon", that it should be worthy of discussion I think.


And I don't think any of us can comment on 052D versus a hypothetical 055 cost effectiveness comparison, although we can all agree there is a place for large missile toting ships in the serious navies of the world, I'm sure.

 

[delft]

I don't know how the military can keep coming up with new acronyms... Surely it must get tiring after a while lol

There must be a service branch to do this work.

 

[Skywatcher]

The Global Security figures of 12,000 tons and 128 VLS sounds reasonable (they admit that the 15m length for the VLS is rather absurd).

 

[Totoro]

One thing of interest to me is that hq9 containers seem to be precisely 7m long. Also, cj10 cruise missile container seems to be between 7,5 and 8 meters long. (that also rings true when we look at images of cruise missiles on h6k and add a booster to them)

That'd mean that if we hold that one text about new VLS as sacred truth and stick to its 3m, 7m and 9m lengths - hq9 may fit in a smaller module, leaving only the cruise missiles for the biggest module.

9 meters is basically enough for everything both now and in the future. Even if there's a brahmos class missile, it'd fit in the 9 meter long VLS module.

Most modules on China's ships, though, may prove to be of 7 meter long kind, not longer. Actually, another mid size variant is sorely missing - a 5 meter long module would be perfect for various kinds of weapons. one could fit both mid range SAM, point defence sam, harpoon class ashms and asroc class asw weapons within a 5 meter long VLS container.

 

[kwaigonegin]

There must be a service branch to do this work.

Acronyms and technical terms are for engineers and academics unless it's something relativeley common. Out in the real world you just give them nicknames most of the time. It's hard enough for seasoned veteran to know all the terms let alone some kid that just came out of A school.

 

[shen]

sites like Global Security is in the business of making money, not to provide accurate information. Minimize expenses (use cheap interns to write articles), maximize profit (media clients can attract more audience with a story about the newest big scary Chinese warship such as Type 055).
It is not a coincidence that FAS and Global Security websites are remarkably similar in both format and content. The same man John Pike is behind both sites. One sales to "liberal" clients by calling itself an arms-control organization. The other sales to "conservative" clients by simply using keywords like CHICOM. Smart man, got both markets covered.