055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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latenlazy

Brigadier
I'm not even sure what you are referring to here. I'm not proposing to decrease the length of the line by manipulating the photo, but by having the photographer shift left and retaking the photo.
I know what you're saying, but I don't think you know what I'm saying? I'm saying any change in the length of a line of reference from changing an angle changes the length of objects that use that line of reference as well.

Like I said, I should have enlarged the cutter photo slightly more than I did. This reflects a cutter photographer who was standing slightly further away from the mystery hull photographer. On the other hand, if I blow up the cutter photo a little more to match the heights of the buildings, windows and light poles, this will only serve the enhance the already significant difference between the wider cutter beam and the narrower mystery hull beam, further reinforcing my point that the cutter is much wider than the mystery hull.
If you match the heights between the two pics then not only will the cutter's width be wider than the mystery hull, but so would the length of reference objects that we know ought to be the same length between the two pics.

I now understand where you are making the error. Because of the nature of how these people took the photos (they were at about the same elevation or the elevation difference is negligible compared to their distance from the hulls), it is not a problem to blow up one photo to match the heights of various objects in the photos. However, this does not apply to comparisons of widths in the same photos. I think we can establish by now that the cutter photographer is standing behind and to the right of the mystery hull photographer. To equalize the locations of the photographers, you have to first equalize distance from the hulls, which I have (mostly) accomplished by slightly blowing up the cutter photo. Only then can you try to equalize the angles, and you can only accomplish this by imagination, not by photo manipulation. And you do this by imagining the cutter photographer shifting leftwards, and then finally retaking the photograph. You can't compare the pier columns in any meaningful way except to confirm that the cutter photographer indeed has to move left to achieve the same final angle as the mystery hull photographer.

My point isn't about equalizing heights. It's that if you equalize the angles to equalize widths, and that shortens the widths of reference objects in the picture with the cutter, it will also shorten the width of the cutter as well. That's how translations work.
 

Iron Man

Major
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Yes, it seems that feature looks like some kind of stain, and as such the cutter photographer looks like he needs to shift right instead of left, which would decrease the apparent beam of the cutter closer to that of the mystery hull. How much closer is anyone's guess, but the length proportion of the two stains to the edge of the building seems to me to be less than the length proportion of the 2 beams of these ships, which would suggest that the mystery hull is still narrower than the cutter.

Also, there is still no good part of the 055 that could fit the appearance of that mystery hull section, as it looks like the entirety of that hull section has 2 decks above the crease, while the 055 has only a small part of its hull with 2 decks above the crease. The top of the 055 hangar is almost certainly going to be 3 decks above the crease and is not much lengthier than the length of a helicopter. The next section forward would be the VLS modules but that area is only 1 deck above the crease. The next section forward would be the back section of the funnels, but they do not extend out to the full width of the ship's beam. The next section would be the forward part of the funnels. This is where the 055 start's having at least 2 decks above the crease extending all the way to the full extent of the beam. This is the case all the way to the front part of the superstructure where it starts narrowing towards the CIWS placement. This section of the 055 as I said looks like it's less than 1/4 of the total length of the 055, whereas the mystery hull looks like it's at least the majority of the length of whatever ship it comprises.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
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To Iron Man and latenlazy,
Your discussion is really long and I couldn't fully follow. So I put a question in hoping to help.

Have you two considered that the photo of "055" may have been taken at its bow than its stern? The bow is narrower than the stern.
 

Iron Man

Major
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To Iron Man and latenlazy,
Your discussion is really long and I couldn't fully follow. So I put a question in hoping to help.

Have you two considered that the photo of "055" may have been taken at its bow than its stern? The bow is narrower than the stern.
This isn't an issue because the 055's beam doesn't start to narrow (moving towards the bow) until we get to the CIWS, and this would be past the 2 decks above the crease area of the 055.
 

Iron Man

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The area in the red box seems to be the only area of the 055 that has any resemblance to the mystery hull section. As I said, not a very significant portion of the 055, while the mystery hull section seems to incorporate a much larger proportion of whatever ship it is a part of.

Type 055 Destroyer Box.png
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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The area in the red box seems to be the only area of the 055 that has any resemblance to the mystery hull section. As I said, not a very significant portion of the 055, while the mystery hull section seems to incorporate a much larger proportion of whatever ship it is a part of.

View attachment 28897

That is assuming the rest of the ship's "continuous deck" is only one deck high, rather than two decks high.

I have suspected for a year or so now, that the Wuhan mock up's "platform deck" is not representative of the height of the "continuous deck," and that the actual height of the "continuous deck" is likely at the demarcation between the white painted underlying structure of the 055 and the grey painted upper mock up structures.
 

Iron Man

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That is assuming the rest of the ship's "continuous deck" is only one deck high, rather than two decks high.

I have suspected for a year or so now, that the Wuhan mock up's "platform deck" is not representative of the height of the "continuous deck," and that the actual height of the "continuous deck" is likely at the demarcation between the white painted underlying structure of the 055 and the grey painted upper mock up structures.
I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you sketch roughly what you mean?
 

Blitzo

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I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you sketch roughly what you mean?

Sure.

This picture (showing a speculated 055 alongside an 052D) seems to be what a lot of people think the 055 will look like, and the amidships part of this depiction shows the upper deck level is consistent with the platform deck on which the 055 mock up at Wuhan sits upon.
In this depiction, the upper "continuous deck" is only one deck level high.

vbyHbHn.jpg



However, I think the real thing will look something more like this (my own revision), and among some of the differences (including the addition of an actual proper aft radar as well as lengthening of the bow and helipad slightly), the biggest difference is that I've increased the height of the deck level to two decks, making the "continuous deck" to be two decks high rather than one.

m2cUl2f.png



My reason for the change, is because I believe all of the white parts of the Wuhan mock up are not going to be actually on the real ship itself, whereas only the grey parts of the Wuhan mock up are actually representative of what the real ship will be.
There are a few reasons for this, such as how early during construction of the mock up we were able to see that the current white painted foundation structure for the mock up were distinctively different to the upper mock up structures:
clhtuhN.jpg


Also visible is how the white foundation structures did not continue the edge alignment of the upper mock up structures of the deck house

Another supporting reason I believe, is that the white "step" foundation structure which protrudes from behind the smoke stack does not make much sense if it were going to be there on the real ship with the platform deck being the upper continuous deck, as that would impede significantly on the available space for the aft VLS module.

Finally, there's also the aft mast on the mock up, which right now has a white "step shaped" mast with a few very small antennae mounted on it, which goes against everything that's been rumoured by big shrimps about what is expected on the aft mast (a big volume search radar), and the terribly small size of the white "step shaped" mast also simply looks inconsistent with the large foundation that it sits upon, where the large foundation suggests it's meant to accommodate a much larger structure.

All the relevant white painted parts are circled in green:
SddQDtT.jpg


So that's why I've heavily speculated/strongly believe, that all of the "white painted" parts of the mock up may not be present on the real ship, and that assuming the profile of the entire mock up (aka including the white painted structures, and including the mock up platform deck) will be representative of the real ship's profile and structure probably isn't correct.

Of course, this speculation is far from fool proof and I could be seeing patterns which aren't there... but at the same time, if the white painted structures on the mock up really are meant to be accurate representations of the profile and structural arrangement of the 055, then I think it doesn't make very much sense.
 

Iron Man

Major
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I now see what you mean. If the area of the VLS is indeed a full deck higher than what the Wuhan model seems to portray, then that mystery hull may well be the 055.

I do have nitpicks with your theory. One is the alleged VSR on top of the hangar. I bet a lot of people expected there to be a lower frequency VSR at that location, but we know for sure that the 055 will have an S-band 4 panel AESA radar and probably a smaller X-band 4 panel AESA radar installed on the main mast itself. This pairing would essentially be the Chinese version of the Dual Band Radar. The problem there is that the S-band large panel AESA is being used as a VSR, and if the Chinese version is intended similarly, I don't see any reason why the 055 should have 3 primary radars, 2 of which are performing the same job. I also don't know of any other ships with 3 primary radars like this, not to mention the expense of such an arrangement. Other modern ships are X+S or X+L only pairings. I think the 052C/D is pretty much unique with its S + VHF setup (or is it X + VHF??? Hmmmm). The other problem is that we already see a little radar on top of that highest little platform which looks to me like a satcom or a datalink. On other PLAN ships datalinks are frequently placed on top of the hangar. On the slightly larger platform below that we can make out 2 whip antennas which would definitely obstruct a rotating VSR on the higher platform. If the goal of the Wuhan mockup is to test hardware/electronics, placement and electromagnetic interference, and that kind of stuff, it seems unreasonable to me that the whip antennas and datalink are going to be removed later to be replaced by a VSR. If that is the case, why put those devices at that location in the first place and waste everybody's time?

A second point is that the rear VLS section holds an unknown number of VLS modules. Minimum 6, maximum 8 in my estimation. If that is the case then that step platform just aft of the funnels is not really obstructing the VLS if that is all the deck area the modules need anyway. Also note there is another pair of whip antennas on that platform. If device testing is the point of the mockup, I tend to think that the presence of those whip antennas strongly legitimizes the inclusion of that small platform in the final design.

The third thing I want to point out is that your whitish area includes the forward CIWS platform, which in no iteration of the 055 design is gone, including your own modified version. Not only that, the white area on the hangar is noticeably higher than the white area on the rest of the ship. For these two reasons I don't feel the need to attach some kind of significance to the differing paint schemes on that mockup. My own suspicion is that since the white areas were finished last they may have just gotten lazy and decided not to paint those areas like the rest of the mockup.
 

Blitzo

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I now see what you mean. If the area of the VLS is indeed a full deck higher than what the Wuhan model seems to portray, then that mystery hull may well be the 055.

I do have nitpicks with your theory. One is the alleged VSR on top of the hangar. I bet a lot of people expected there to be a lower frequency VSR at that location, but we know for sure that the 055 will have an S-band 4 panel AESA radar and probably a smaller X-band 4 panel AESA radar installed on the main mast itself. This pairing would essentially be the Chinese version of the Dual Band Radar. The problem there is that the S-band large panel AESA is being used as a VSR, and if the Chinese version is intended similarly, I don't see any reason why the 055 should have 3 primary radars, 2 of which are performing the same job. I also don't know of any other ships with 3 primary radars like this, not to mention the expense of such an arrangement. Other modern ships are X+S or X+L only pairings. I think the 052C/D is pretty much unique with its S + VHF setup (or is it X + VHF??? Hmmmm). The other problem is that we already see a little radar on top of that highest little platform which looks to me like a satcom or a datalink. On other PLAN ships datalinks are frequently placed on top of the hangar. On the slightly larger platform below that we can make out 2 whip antennas which would definitely obstruct a rotating VSR on the higher platform. If the goal of the Wuhan mockup is to test hardware/electronics, placement and electromagnetic interference, and that kind of stuff, it seems unreasonable to me that the whip antennas and datalink are going to be removed later to be replaced by a VSR. If that is the case, why put those devices at that location in the first place and waste everybody's time?

A second point is that the rear VLS section holds an unknown number of VLS modules. Minimum 6, maximum 8 in my estimation. If that is the case then that step platform just aft of the funnels is not really obstructing the VLS if that is all the deck area the modules need anyway. Also note there is another pair of whip antennas on that platform. If device testing is the point of the mockup, I tend to think that the presence of those whip antennas strongly legitimizes the inclusion of that small platform in the final design.

The third thing I want to point out is that your whitish area includes the forward CIWS platform, which in no iteration of the 055 design is gone, including your own modified version. Not only that, the white area on the hangar is noticeably higher than the white area on the rest of the ship. For these two reasons I don't feel the need to attach some kind of significance to the differing paint schemes on that mockup. My own suspicion is that since the white areas were finished last they may have just gotten lazy and decided not to paint those areas like the rest of the mockup.

All good points, I'll address them all one by one.

VSR issue: I do think that the 055 will have both an X band and an S band MFR, however, that doesn't preclude the role of a low frequency VSR, nor should we necessarily assume that the 055 will inherently seek to limit itself to only a "dual band" radar suite (like the arrangement of Burke III or the original intention of Zumwalt class).
I see the roles of an X band, S band, and L band (or other low frequency) MFR as all having fairly distinct, but slightly over lapping roles, where X band would do short to mid range horizon and surface search as well as provide fire control for the main gun and possibly terminal guidance for SARH missiles; S band would provide general mid and long range VSR functions for air search and fire control for midcourse guidance of ARH missiles; L band would fulfill the role of very long range VSR role

So three radars with slightly overlapping functions I think would allow them to focus on each role better, and it also provides benefit in that the multiple sets of radar may also allow for a degree of redundancy if the ship experiences battle damage.

Of course, all this doesn't mean that I believe 055 will definitely have a large aft radar. My position regarding the aft radar is that such a configuration can potentially be sensible for a ship like this, however at the same time, the only reason I am arguing for this case is because of the persistent rumours from big shrimps over the last few years suggesting an aft radar is a core characteristic of the 055. If fzgfzy or pop3 tomorrow say that 055 won't have an aft radar then I would probably cease pushing this case and accept that maybe the small step mast on the aft could be representative of the real thing.

edit: regarding a potential VSR aft mast replacing the small step mast and interacting with the whip antennae -- I think those whip antennae may not be present on the real final ship either, and are merely sensors for testing purposes.


VLS: yes, it is possible that there is enough space in the amidships position for 6 or even 8 VLS modules in that area while also having the "step" structure in place. However, if there is also going to be a large rotating aft radar on the mast, then there may not be enough clearance between the more aft VLS modules of the 6 or 8 VLS block vs the aft radar to be considered safe.
Obviously if there ends up being no aft radar then the step structure might make a bit more sense, however at this point, with the characteristics of the 055 which we do know about via the BBS and big shrimps over the years, I think the step structure does not make very much sense.

Regarding the whip antennae -- funnily enough when those appeared on the step platform I interpreted it as a reason for why I think the step platform would not be present on the real thing, because I suspect the whip antennae may be equipment only for the mock up's EM testing, and that the step platform could be there to provide a dedicated structure for the testing purposes that is mock up exclusive.


CIWS platform: I do believe that the CIWS platform with the type 1130 is an accurate depiction of the height of the CIWS, but I think that the geometry of the CIWS platform may not look like it on the real ship. On the Wuhan mock up, the CIWS platform is a straight up rectangular block with vertical surfaces and edges, without any inwards cant on the side surfaces or bow surface to align the surfaces and edges with the rest of the deckhouse, that we would expect on a surface combatant. Both 052D and 052C feature this sort of edge and surface cant and alignment, and I expect 055 would have it as well.

I also doubt that the difference in white vs grey paint is due to laziness -- after all, they still needed to paint the entire thing anyway, so why did the feel the need to so uniformly paint the differing levels/structures of the ship in different colours? Especially when the foundation white structures correspond with the foundation structures of the mock up which we saw when it was during construction (3rd photo of my last post)... and it also raises the question as to why the small "step" mast on the aft mast is painted white as well, given that little step mast was actually constructed and put up a little while after the rest of the mock up was completed -- I can't imagine they ran out of grey paint and only had white paint lying around.


Anyway, all the above reasons (and my last post) is why I think the "continuous deck" of the mystery modules being two deck levels high is not a reason to rule out the possibility of the modules being for 055. (edit: this isn't to say that I'm saying there's a 100% likelihood that my speculated structural differences will be present on the real ship, but I think that there is a sensible case to say that it's possible based on the physical evidence we have of the mockup and some of the consistent rumours/BBS chatter we have)

If anything, in hindsight it could turn out that the two deck levels of the continuous deck will be seen as a major supporting reason for suspecting the modules being for 055.
 
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