055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Iron Man]

I see the roles of an X band, S band, and L band (or other low frequency) MFR as all having fairly distinct, but slightly over lapping roles, where X band would do short to mid range horizon and surface search as well as provide fire control for the main gun and possibly terminal guidance for SARH missiles; S band would provide general mid and long range VSR functions for air search and fire control for midcourse guidance of ARH missiles; L band would fulfill the role of very long range VSR role

So three radars with slightly overlapping functions I think would allow them to focus on each role better, and it also provides benefit in that the multiple sets of radar may also allow for a degree of redundancy if the ship experiences battle damage.

If redundancy were truly a valued priority we would see many ships with a triple set of slightly redundant radars. As far as I know all modern principal combatants only have 2 main radars, with the lower band radar providing either VS alone (L-band) or VS plus mid-course guidance (S-band). Cost, maintenance, manning, limited deck space, and extra topside weight are all going to conspire against adding more complexity to a ship's sensor suite.

Of course, all this doesn't mean that I believe 055 will definitely have a large aft radar. My position regarding the aft radar is that such a configuration can potentially be sensible for a ship like this, however at the same time, the only reason I am arguing for this case is because of the persistent rumours from big shrimps over the last few years suggesting an aft radar is a core characteristic of the 055. If fzgfzy or pop3 tomorrow say that 055 won't have an aft radar then I would probably cease pushing this case and accept that maybe the small step mast on the aft could be representative of the real thing.

Obviously if there ends up being no aft radar then the step structure might make a bit more sense, however at this point, with the characteristics of the 055 which we do know about via the BBS and big shrimps over the years, I think the step structure does not make very much sense.

I've lost track of what big shrimps have been saying over the years. The aft VSR may be more a reflection of their own desires rather than anything substantive in the way of insider knowledge. That datalink and those 2 whip antennas just kills the aft VSR theory for me.

Regarding the whip antennae -- funnily enough when those appeared on the step platform I interpreted it as a reason for why I think the step platform would not be present on the real thing, because I suspect the whip antennae may be equipment only for the mock up's EM testing, and that the step platform could be there to provide a dedicated structure for the testing purposes that is mock up exclusive.

Since the 055 is not a total stealth platform like the Zumwalt, it's definitely going to have whip antennas, just like every other modern warship does. It would be very strange to think that the currently present whips will be relocated, or even more strangely, completely removed at some point in the future. Whip antennas aren't really an optional feature on ships unless you incorporate them into the very structure of the hull like the Zumwalt does; I do not expect this to be the case for the 055.

CIWS platform: I do believe that the CIWS platform with the type 1130 is an accurate depiction of the height of the CIWS, but I think that the geometry of the CIWS platform may not look like it on the real ship. On the Wuhan mock up, the CIWS platform is a straight up rectangular block with vertical surfaces and edges, without any inwards cant on the side surfaces or bow surface to align the surfaces and edges with the rest of the deckhouse, that we would expect on a surface combatant. Both 052D and 052C feature this sort of edge and surface cant and alignment, and I expect 055 would have it as well.

The side surfaces (where the white is) of the CIWS platform actually are canted. You can even see it in the photo you just posted with the green circles.

I also doubt that the difference in white vs grey paint is due to laziness -- after all, they still needed to paint the entire thing anyway, so why did the feel the need to so uniformly paint the differing levels/structures of the ship in different colours? Especially when the foundation white structures correspond with the foundation structures of the mock up which we saw when it was during construction (3rd photo of my last post)... and it also raises the question as to why the small "step" mast on the aft mast is painted white as well, given that little step mast was actually constructed and put up a little while after the rest of the mock up was completed -- I can't imagine they ran out of grey paint and only had white paint lying around.

I suspect they painted the structure in stages, following the manner in which they finished the hull plating of each section. I believe the white areas were finished last, including the little platforms on top of the hangar. The white is probably an anti-rust/primer coat, and the gray is the standard PLAN color. You also still haven't accounted for why the hangar's white area is higher than the rest of the ship's white area. If that was on purpose I don't see any reason why that should be.

 

[Blitzo]

If redundancy were truly a valued priority we would see many ships with a triple set of slightly redundant radars. As far as I know all modern principal combatants only have 2 main radars, with the lower band radar providing either VS alone (L-band) or VS plus mid-course guidance (S-band). Cost, maintenance, manning, limited deck space, and extra topside weight are all going to conspire against adding more complexity to a ship's sensor suite.

Yep, that is a sensible counter argument for the idea of three band MFRs... but I think there is also a reasonable case to argue that the Navy might happen to see value in such a configuration.
In fact, the 052C/D actually has three major sets of radars as well: there's the upper mast mounted, mechanically rotating surface search Type 364 in X band, then there's the Type 346 in S band, then there's the Type 517M Yagi array operating in UHF/VHF band.

I've lost track of what big shrimps have been saying over the years. The aft VSR may be more a reflection of their own desires rather than anything substantive in the way of insider knowledge.

Maybe, but at the moment I think the cumulative logic and rumours for an aft VSR being present is as good if not slightly better compared to the cumulative reasoning against the presence of an aft VSR.

That datalink and those 2 whip antennas just kills the aft VSR theory for me.

Since the 055 is not a total stealth platform like the Zumwalt, it's definitely going to have whip antennas, just like every other modern warship does. It would be very strange to think that the currently present whips will be relocated, or even more strangely, completely removed at some point in the future. Whip antennas aren't really an optional feature on ships unless you incorporate them into the very structure of the hull like the Zumwalt does; I do not expect this to be the case for the 055.

I expect they probably will have whip antennae on the real 055 as well -- however I'm saying that the whip antennae we see on the 055 mock up may not serve the role on the real 055, but rather serve specifically for test purposes on the mock up.

The side surfaces (where the white is) of the CIWS platform actually are canted. You can even see it in the photo you just posted with the green circles.

The sides are slightly canted, but I think the front most definitely isn't.

It's hard to tell if the cant on the sides is canted and aligned correctly with the rest of the deckhouse and the rest of the ship (it may well be).

I suspect they painted the structure in stages, following the manner in which they finished the hull plating of each section. I believe the white areas were finished last, including the little platforms on top of the hangar. The white is probably an anti-rust/primer coat, and the gray is the standard PLAN color.

That is possible, however I do not recall the current grey parts of the 055 mock up having a white undercoat. It's possible that we just missed it and they just grew lazy and couldn't be bothered painting over the white parts of the mock up... but I think my idea that they've deliberately painted them white vs grey to distinguish between the representative vs non representative parts of the mock up is also an equally reasonable one.

You also still haven't accounted for why the hangar's white area is higher than the rest of the ship's white area. If that was on purpose I don't see any reason why that should be.

Yes, and I've racked my brains a few years back for a reasonable answer, and the only one I can come up with is that the underlying concrete structure of the aft hangar structure on the mock up is taller than the underlying concrete structure for the rest of the forward mock up.


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Look, there obviously are a bunch of reasonable counter arguments for all the premises I've laid out which my conclusion rests on, and I've never said that I 100% believe that the structural differences I described will definitely occur on the real ship -- but I do believe my individual premises are all at least equally as reasonable vs the counter arguments that could be brought to bear against them.

So I think my overall argument is one which cannot be definitively or reliably dismissed, and thus when considering this and going back to the mystery module, I think the two deck high continuous deck is not a sufficient characteristic to definitively rule out the possibility of the module being for 055.

Or putting it another way -- let's wait and see.

 

[Blitzo]

The sides are slightly canted, but I think the front most definitely isn't.

I've tried to find some good side pictures of the mock up, and it appears that the front surface might also be slightly canted -- that said, this doesn't necessarily invalidate the premise that the white paint reflects the level of the structural foundation.

We can see that the front/side surfaces and edges of the aft hangar structure are also continuous with the entire height of the structure despite the white and grey paint demarcation, while other parts of the mock up such as the more amidships part of the mock up, such as the forward side edge of the deck house.

 

[Iron Man]

In fact, the 052C/D actually has three major sets of radars as well: there's the upper mast mounted, mechanically rotating surface search Type 364 in X band, then there's the Type 346 in S band, then there's the Type 517M Yagi array operating in UHF/VHF band.

Radars like the 364 is why I used the term "main" radar. If you count the 364 you'd have to start counting all sorts of lesser radars on warships like the Band Stands, the Front Domes, the Type 345s, the navigation radars, etc.

I expect they probably will have whip antennae on the real 055 as well -- however I'm saying that the whip antennae we see on the 055 mock up may not serve the role on the real 055, but rather serve specifically for test purposes on the mock up.

Right, but if you agree there are going to be whip antennas on the 055, why not those whip antennas at those locations on the mockup? Isn't that the most natural conclusion to draw? They are there to test if being there is ok.

So I think my overall argument is one which cannot be definitively or reliably dismissed, and thus when considering this and going back to the mystery module, I think the two deck high continuous deck is not a sufficient characteristic to definitively rule out the possibility of the module being for 055.

Or putting it another way -- let's wait and see.

There could certainly be reasons or details that neither of us have thought of or seen that increase the likelihood of that module belonging to a 055. I agree that time is the only definitive solution to our current lack of knowledge.

 

[Blitzo]

Radars like the 364 is why I used the term "main" radar. If you count the 364 you'd have to start counting all sorts of lesser radars on warships like the Band Stands, the Front Domes, the Type 345s, the navigation radars, etc.

I would definitely consider Type 364 as a "main" radar aboard the likes of 052C/052D class, given it is intended for air and surface/horizon search functions operating on a band for better target discrimination, and evidently is capable and flexible enough to be the primary radar system aboard the 056 class corvette.

Obviously, if I were to list all the independent single role radars like fire control radar for guns, or the OTH surface attack radar, or navigation radar, then that would be stretching it.

Right, but if you agree there are going to be whip antennas on the 055, why not those whip antennas at those locations on the mockup? Isn't that the most natural conclusion to draw? They are there to test if being there is ok.

That would be the natural conclusion to draw, if the other supporting premises I listed did not also exist.

There could certainly be reasons or details that neither of us have thought of or seen that increase the likelihood of that module belonging to a 055. I agree that time is the only definitive solution to our current lack of knowledge.

Great, that's the best conclusion for this discussion to come to.

 

[AndrewS]

Just one thing to add on the radars

I see the 3rd Yagi radar being used with a specific anti-stealth role.

Remember that the E-2D VHF/UHF radar is apparently able to detect stealth fighters and also generate a weapons quality track.

 

[Totoro]

I wouldn't be so sure of weapons quality track. An UHF array (definitely not VHF) on such a small vertical aperture as on E-2D? Unlikely to offer any sort of vertical precision on its own.

 

[AndrewS]

I wouldn't be so sure of weapons quality track. An UHF array (definitely not VHF) on such a small vertical aperture as on E-2D? Unlikely to offer any sort of vertical precision on its own.

I didn't think it was possible either, but feel free to disagree with the US Navy on how they say they're using CEC with fighter jets and AEGIS destroyers.

 

[asif iqbal]

Type 055 spotted

 

[AndrewS]

Source?