055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Sigh

You need to bone up at missile defence.

ABM on a Type-55 can only hit targets closeby. But compare that to the incoming target set of warheads and decoys that could be deployed from ICBMs much further away.

It is much easier and cheaper to build BMs/warheads/decoys - than it is to build a super accurate ABM system with expensive missiles. Plus remember the Type-55 can only cover the Chinese coastline. What about the Chinese interior where two-thirds of the population live?

Perhaps you should follow your own advice?

You do realise that ABM mounted on a ship could actually MOVE right? What makes you think the PLAN is going to limit itself to only parking its 055 along its own coastline, when the entire point of putting ABM on ships is so that you can deploy them MUCH further forwards, towards an enemy, than land based interceptors based on home soil?

Land based ABM has to be able to deal with enemy missiles at their most deadly. Sea based ABM can move up and engage incoming missiles at their most vulnerable.

Having sea based ABM is like deploying a wall in football, while land based ABM is like the goalkeeper.

Even the best goalkeepers in the world struggle when left exposed to deal with swinging free kicks that have the entire goal to aim for. Its much easier and effective to try and charge down the shot soon after it has been fired, before the spine, and whip and dip a good player can add to the flight of the ball could take effect.

And of course, having a wall and a keeper gives you the best chance of keeping the ball out.

As for costs. Well ABM was never designed to be able to stop a saturation attack, and is more as a counter against an opponent with limited missiles and warheads.

As expensive as ABM is, a nuclear detonation in the middle of one of your major cities is going to be an order of magnitude more expensive.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
You do realise that ABM mounted on a ship could actually MOVE right? What makes you think the PLAN is going to limit itself to only parking its 055 along its own coastline, when the entire point of putting ABM on ships is so that you can deploy them MUCH further forwards, towards an enemy, than land based interceptors based on home soil?
How about because away from shore-based support, PLAN ships are like overfed ducks to a host of world-leading weapon platforms on, over, and under the water? Everyone knows China made substantive progress across all military domains, but it still has a long ways to go.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Hence a coup against fattie Kim is only justified when the risks become large enough. But Kim knows that if he becomes a big enough liability, China will seek to remove him. Hence all the purges he has been conducting to try and leave him as the only person in NK to deal with.

You are assuming chubby Kim is a reasonable and rational person. That doesn't seem like a safe bet tbh.

You are also getting your reasoning in a muddle. Either Chubs play ball, in which case their is no need to remove him via a coup, or he looses the plot, in which case all bets are off.

In addition, all of chub's ruthless homicidal rage-purges makes any coup attempt less likely to be successful as he removes any and everyone who might be able to mount a challenge to him.

It's a cost benefit calculation at the end of the day as to naval ABM. I see the top priority for the Type-55 as being able to conduct effective air defense using CEC, preferably against stealthed targets which is a capability that is actually useful. Trying to build an ABM capability will detract from that objective. That's not to say that it couldn't be added to a later AEGIS baseline version way down the line.

What is your basis for saying adding ABM will detract from the 055's ability to conduct regular air defence?

Just because it can carry out ABM does not mean you need to ram it to the gills with ABM interceptors all the time you know.

Yes, naval ABM would be of use in the boost phase if BMs were launched from SK or JP. But there are no credible scenarios where this happens. If they get through the political/financial/technological challenges of building nukes AND ballistic missiles, they still know that if they start launching nukes at China, they will likely see their own extinction from the nukes coming back the way. So is there any rush to get naval ABM ready when the land-based version will already be in place?

That's assuming China is just going to sit back and let them get nukes.

Having ABM gives China the option of forcibly stopping them attempt to acquire the bomb, or to disarm their nascent nuclear capacity before it reaches sufficient critical mass as to be unstoppable.

If Japan secretly built a small stockpile of nukes before they were caught and refused to give them up peacefully, you are risking a nuclear hit to disarm them by force. With ABM, you at least have the option and possibility of neutralising the enemy nukes without suffering a nuclear hit to do it.

A successful intercept is infinitely preferable to suffering a nuclear hit yourself and launch a nuclear retaliatory strike even 1000 times worse than what you received, especially on a close neighbour.

As has been spelt out clearly and repeatedly now. Naval systems have many significant advantages over land based systems, and its not a one or the other choice. You can easily have both.

Plus how close can the Chinese Navy realistically get to a hostile JP or SK coastline?

Pretty close without US interference.

Remember that deterrence against nukes ultimately doesn't come from having an ABM system, because the attacker has a huge cost advantage over the defender. So it comes from having enough nukes of your own. But if we ever get to the point where nukes are being thrown around, then there are no winners, only losers.

Again, that's only the case with established and accepted nuclear powers.

If you want to stop a nascent new power from acquiring nukes, ABM gives you a good half way measure from launching nukes yourself.

Side note, every ABM system doubles as an ASAT system. For the US, the cost equation goes $10million for an SM-6 type-missile to shoot down a satellite which may cost say $200-$1000million.

So I suspect ASAT is the primary driver of the current Chinese programme and ABM is actually secondary.

That's very debatable. ABM can only effectively engage the most low flying satellites.

ASAT is best down with land based assets that does not have to be so restrained in size.


I also find it quite amusing that you were decrying China from spending $200million more on the Type-55 hull with way more conventional capability than the Type-52D, yet a naval ABM system will cost far more for a contingency which is not very useful.

Please show us how adding ABM will added more than $200m to each 055.

Considering a nuclear strike will cost you damage in the billions with hundreds of thousands or even millions dead, even at $200m, its a bargain.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
How about because away from shore-based support, PLAN ships are like overfed ducks to a host of world-leading weapon platforms on, over, and under the water? Everyone knows China made substantive progress across all military domains, but it still has a long ways to go.

China lacking the ASW seems to be one of those myths that has acquired a life of its own irrespective of changing facts.

In the past that position was certainly justified, but with pretty much every modern PLAN surface combatant getting a very full and comprehensive ASW suit, that argument is starting to hold less and less water.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
You are assuming chubby Kim is a reasonable and rational person. That doesn't seem like a safe bet tbh.

You are also getting your reasoning in a muddle. Either Chubs play ball, in which case their is no need to remove him via a coup, or he looses the plot, in which case all bets are off.

In addition, all of chub's ruthless homicidal rage-purges makes any coup attempt less likely to be successful as he removes any and everyone who might be able to mount a challenge to him.



What is your basis for saying adding ABM will detract from the 055's ability to conduct regular air defence?

Just because it can carry out ABM does not mean you need to ram it to the gills with ABM interceptors all the time you know.



That's assuming China is just going to sit back and let them get nukes.

Having ABM gives China the option of forcibly stopping them attempt to acquire the bomb, or to disarm their nascent nuclear capacity before it reaches sufficient critical mass as to be unstoppable.

If Japan secretly built a small stockpile of nukes before they were caught and refused to give them up peacefully, you are risking a nuclear hit to disarm them by force. With ABM, you at least have the option and possibility of neutralising the enemy nukes without suffering a nuclear hit to do it.

A successful intercept is infinitely preferable to suffering a nuclear hit yourself and launch a nuclear retaliatory strike even 1000 times worse than what you received, especially on a close neighbour.

As has been spelt out clearly and repeatedly now. Naval systems have many significant advantages over land based systems, and its not a one or the other choice. You can easily have both.



Pretty close without US interference.



Again, that's only the case with established and accepted nuclear powers.

If you want to stop a nascent new power from acquiring nukes, ABM gives you a good half way measure from launching nukes yourself.



That's very debatable. ABM can only effectively engage the most low flying satellites.

ASAT is best down with land based assets that does not have to be so restrained in size.




Please show us how adding ABM will added more than $200m to each 055.

Considering a nuclear strike will cost you damage in the billions with hundreds of thousands or even millions dead, even at $200m, its a bargain.

I don't think chubby Kim is deluded enough to think that he can survive if China drops him.

The Chinese AEGIS and CEC is still very new, and is likely still at at early baseline. Adding ABM capability at this time will complicate things, especially if the Type-55 has to integrate a new anti-stealth radar.

And now, you're going into the deep end about China forcibly stopping South Korea or Japan from acquiring nuclear weapons. An easier and more effective route would be economic sanctions/warfare which could bring their economy to its knees, and the US would be obliged to join in those sanctions as part of the nuclear proliferation treaty.

Remember that both the US and China have an interest in them not going nuclear.

But let's go with your far-fetched scenario about Japan somehow acquiring a small nuclear weapons stockpile and then China suffering a nuclear hit from them. How on earth can Japan get away with multiple MRBM tests without someone noticing?

Even if they did, the Type-55 is unlikely to get close enough to Japan to intercept in the boost phase.
And there would be land-based ABM interceptors for their terminal re-entry phase.

Then suppose Japan actually detonates a nuke over a Chinese city. Then what? Japan is not going to commit national suicide, as Japan is over a 1000km from China, so China could blanket Japan with enough nukes without too much fallout, as we saw from Fukushima.

===

Yes, China could develop a naval ABM capability, but is it actually worth it?

Remember most satellites are in low-earth orbit, and that Chinese VLS cells can accomodate much larger missiles than the SM-6.

How much does an ABM programme cost? It reckon it'll be at bare minimum of $5billion for the R&D alone, but probably much more. Then you've got the upgraded radars, electronics and missiles.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Guys, an SD Super Moderator, Deino, indicated that we need to get back on topic about the Type 055 DDG.

The discussion about ABM, MAD doctrine, etc. needed to stop...but it kept right on going.

I have deleted those posts after Deino's moderation. Anymore continuation of that discussion will lead to warnings and then suspensions.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION


WalkingTall3.jpg
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Some information shows that the first 055 was launched last week. Keep this floor and I will update something.
I very seriously doubt this.

We have people on this forum who are keyed into the what is happening in China.

We see the new pics of the J-20, the Carrier construction, etc, within days of it happening.

So the building of the Type 055 would not have gone unnoticed, and we have not seen pics of that first build...which will take one or two years. .

That is why I doubt it seriously. But if you can bring authentic pics to the contrary...please do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top