054B/new generation frigate

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Once again, Artillery control is managed by the middle set of four, the same which provides for Redut missile guidance. Bottom four are ESM/ECM. This is the third time I am writing this. There are four frequency bands monitored and two can be actively jammed.

Yeah right. Except that is not how ESM/ECM looks. They look like this, both the units on the top and the bottom.


Sea-SLQ-32.jpg

And I already told you that a flat array divided into four quadrants is the signature appearance of a monopulse radar. That is what you see on the lower set of this Zaslon MF. The middle set mind you would also be a monopulse radar. Monopulse can be parabolic, slotted array, PESA or AESA.


16-Figure12-1.png

Which is typical of a fire control radar that is meant to engage and track targets with a high amount of ECM resistance.

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"llustration given is not consistent to a PESA since it would require a large analog transmitter on the back of the array that is connected to the array with line feeds of equal length. Equal length linefeed to every element is essential to prevent frequency steer."

Ever heard of digital antenna arrays?

Digital antenna arrays are AESA, not PESA. A PESA means a single analog transmitter like what you see below feeds the entire array.

Both middle and lower sets of arrays on Zaslon MF are AESAs working on monopulse.


twt-vtr.jpg
 
Last edited:

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
It doesn't need to spin very fast constantly. It can slow down, so the face is allowed to dwell on the target longer. If the radar is turning in one direction, the tracking beam can contra rotate, which also allows a longer dwell time on the target. Remember the array allows an X and Y scan, compared to search radars that only electronically scan vertically, and need to be mechanically turned around for horizontal scan, like the Type 382.

This video explains it best. NS100 or NS200 is new Thales rotating S-band AESA. It is similar to the two new radars but its only one sided. But you get the general idea. The PDF on the NS100 and NS200 are copy and paste clones of each other, the difference is the range, with the NS100 at 280km and the NS200 at 400km. This radar is being considered for the RN's Type 31 frigates instead of the Artisan 3D that will be used on the Type 26.

If you are dealing with farther range or stealthy target, your rotation needs to slow so you can put more dwell time on the target.

If you are dealing with fast moving target, the rotation will speed up so you can more frequent updates on fast targets.

But what if you are dealing with both threats at the same time. If the array is turning fast in one direction, the beam can steer to the other direction in contra rotation. This puts the beam longer on the far ranged or lower RCS target, while keeping track of other fast moving targets.



The problem I see is that even if the beam is contra rotating to keep its track on the threat target as long as possible, the face will still inevitably rotate away, and you need to quickly recover the track of the target as soon as the face rotates back.

With a dual face, as soon as one face turns away from the target, the other face will be turning around to face it. The beam will first steer in the same direction as the rotation, so it can quickly catch and track the target, then slows down the steer to allow the face to catch up, then as the face starts to turn away, the beam will contra rotate to keep on the target longer until the face completely steers away and the other face retakes the target track. This allows the system to keep track on the target at all times.
 

SpicySichuan

Senior Member
Registered Member
No, Zaslon on 20385 also is PESA, Russians prefer to call it quasi-AESA, but that doesn't make it real AESA. It has inherited quite a lot from Zaslon-AM of later MiG-31s.
Just a common sense question. What is the PESA to AESA jump so difficult? How come only a few defense giants were able to make this jump successfully?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Just a common sense question. What is the PESA to AESA jump so difficult? How come only a few defense giants were able to make this jump successfully?

Its not. I don't know why some people in these Russian defense forums are so obsessed about PESA and why they, or some others, think it would be difficult to do AESA, even with Russian radar companies have been working on AESA designs and modules since the 2000s. That's a long time ago. Plus there are many smaller companies in Australia, Israel, India, Sweden, Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, and Spain that already have produced operational AESA designs for some years now or working on them.

This is the Zaslon MF radar in display, and you can see the back of it, you can see access panels and is divided into subassemblies.

zaslon_mvms-2015_01-1 (1).jpg

zaslon_mf_rlk_mvms-2015_07 (1).jpg

Now compare those with the Thales SeaFire 500.

hqdefault (2).jpg

maxresdefault (18).jpg

46885-effc7fc561d7d0c618dc5efae4684fd0.gif
 

snake65

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Just a common sense question. What is the PESA to AESA jump so difficult? How come only a few defense giants were able to make this jump successfully?
Technology wise it's not difficult, just more expensive. And with Russian post-2014 hysteria of "self-reliance" production of modules for AESA is one of the choke points. Similar to trouble they have in marine propulsion - they can produce a nuclear powertrain for icebreakers and submarines but are stuck with gas turbines and reduction gear for them.
 

by78

General
A magazine scan of that new radar.

50130145017_ad5d47192b_k.jpg
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Its not. I don't know why some people in these Russian defense forums are so obsessed about PESA and why they, or some others, think it would be difficult to do AESA, even with Russian radar companies have been working on AESA designs and modules since the 2000s. That's a long time ago. Plus there are many smaller companies in Australia, Israel, India, Sweden, Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, and Spain that already have produced operational AESA designs for some years now or working on them.

This is the Zaslon MF radar in display, and you can see the back of it, you can see access panels and is divided into subassemblies.

View attachment 61815

View attachment 61816

Now compare those with the Thales SeaFire 500.

View attachment 61819

View attachment 61820

View attachment 61821

I can't read all the technical specifications posted by Snake, but definitely it's outlining Active functions for Zaslon MF on X, S bands, and different Passive functions on L, S, X, C, Ku, followed by another set of (passive) functions on S, C, X, Ku and finally one last set on just X and Ku.

Back on topic now...

If 2 face radar can continuously illuminate targets, is there any immediate need for active seeker missile?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I can't read all the technical specifications posted by Snake, but definitely it's outlining Active functions for Zaslon MF on X, S bands, and different Passive functions on L, S, X, C, Ku, followed by another set of (passive) functions on S, C, X, Ku and finally one last set on just X and Ku.

They displayed the specs but also along with the whole integrated mast. The integrated mast has TK-25E-5, which is a brand new ESM set. See the large chunky thing below the navigation radar. ECM and ESM sets are usually hung around the sides of the mast, for Russian warships, a practice that is also followed by the PLAN.

20385_gremyshii_spb_190720_4_08.jpg

Data is scant I only have this.

TK-25E-5 ECM system is designed to intercept emissions of airborne and shipborne tar-get acquisition radars, weapons control radars and anti-ship missile radar seekers, to perform automatic signal classification, to determine most dangerous approaches of attacks against the ship, and to provide jamming in threat directions.TK-25E-5’s configuration depends on carrier-ship type and displacement. Source scribd.com

GENERAL DATA:
Type: ESM Altitude Max: 0 m
Range Max: 926 km Altitude Min: 0 m
Range Min: 0 km Generation: Early 2000s
SENSORS / EW:
TK-25-2 ESM – ESM
Role: ELINT w/ OTH Targeting
Max Range: 926 km
Source cmano-db.com

The ECM and ESM sets are all over the mast, right next to the Zaslons. Far more likely the passive and the jamming capabilities are from the TK-25E-5 set. This version of the TK-25 is so brand new, its not seen on the Admiral Gorshkov class. Only the Project 20385 has this, and my bet is the new EW suite will also make its appearance in future batches of the Gorshkov, as well with the Zaslon and the integrated mast.

capture2-5.jpg

Back on topic now...

If 2 face radar can continuously illuminate targets, is there any immediate need for active seeker missile?

There is already a patent to what you are saying "If 2 face radar can continuously illuminate targets,"

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Its already expired however. But I doubt the two faced radar you see on Weapons Test Ship 892 does missile target illumination because its going to be working on the S-band if its meant as a Type 382 "Top Plate" replacement, and is meant primarily as a pulse search radar. For missile target illumination, the radar has to be a continuous wave X-band radar. I also doubt that the other two faced radar, the one you see on the Type 075, works as a continuous wave X-band radar, and even if one side is an X-band the other side isn't.

What the two sided S-band radar can do is tell the active missile where the target is via datalink, and guide the missile on its mid phase towards the target till the target is at the range of the active radar seeker on the missile, and missile activates it. Do note that active seekers tend to have a short seeker range, due to the size of the antenna, which is small, being battery powered, which limits your power, and uses high X, K or Ku band frequency for angular resolution. So its the job of the main radar to bring the active seeker missile to within range of its own seeker.

Yes. Active seekers allow for a high number of simultaneous engagement, and engagement beyond the horizon.

Just to toss this in. Remember the Chinese lantern mock up in Wuhan? That's supposed to contain a two faced radar. Given the size of it, I think that's the one that ended up on the Type 075 but the radome is cancelled.

EZafrFnU4AIXaKa.jpeg

EZaO_xDU4AExbV5.jpeg
 

Errys

New Member
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:: Type 054B

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Type 054B

Type 054B
Initial Operational Capability (IOC): 2019
Total Production: 2
Also Known As: Jiangkai-III
Origin:
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Corporations: China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation CSIC
Parent System: Type 054
Initial Operational Capability (IOC): 2005
Total Production: 36
Family Members:
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Reviews
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Description: The Type 054 class frigate has been designed as the replacement for aging and obsolete Type 053 frigates within the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN). Type 054, NATO codename Jiangkai, are 3,400-ton class ships featuring stealthy design with reduced radar cross section and infrared signature for enhanced survivability. In addition, these ships are suitable for offshore and oceanic/blue water operations. Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard and Guangzhou Huangpu Shipyard are responsible for the construction of the Type 054 frigates. The lead ship, FFG 525 Ma'anshan, was commissioned by PLAN in 2005.

The 5,000-ton class Type 054B or Jiangkai-III multi-purpose frigates are a further derivate of the Type 54 class vessels with enhanced anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities and an all-electric propulsion system developing 20 MW. China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) is responsible for the construction of the lead ship. The larger Type 054B frigates integrates both flight deck and hangar for a single Z-9C or Ka-28 ASW helicopter. Her vertical launch system (VLS) will accept HHQ-16C/D surface-to-air missiles, CY-3 anti-submarine missiles and YJ-85 supersonic long-range land attack/anti-ship missiles. Due to its larger hull the Type 054B may be fitted with more than 32 VLS cells. The ship will be fitted with an eight-cell FL-3000N close range air defense system similar to the US Navy's RAM anti-missile system. The weapon system also includes a 76mm PJ26 dual purpose gun, Type 81 anti-submarine rocket launcher and two triple 324mm torpedo tubes. The Type 054B existence was revealed in 2013 with the lead ship to be commissioned by the PLAN in 2016 or 2017.

Type 054B Specifications
Number of Aircraft: 1
Torpedo Tubes: 6
Dimensions
Beam: 16 meter (52 foot)
Length: 140 meter (459 foot)
Main Gun Caliber: 76 millimeter
Power
Total Combined Power: 20 MW (26,810 hp)
Weight
Full Displacement: 5,000 ton

View attachment 62376

Type 054B Ship Listing

SerialNameStatusLaunch DateCommissionDecommission
551
2.png
8 Jun 20162018-
#2
2.png
-2019-
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
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:: Type 054B

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Type 054B

Type 054B
Initial Operational Capability (IOC): 2019
Total Production: 2
Also Known As: Jiangkai-III
Origin:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Corporations: China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation CSIC
Parent System: Type 054
Initial Operational Capability (IOC): 2005
Total Production: 36
Family Members:
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and
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Reviews
There are no reviews so far

Description: The Type 054 class frigate has been designed as the replacement for aging and obsolete Type 053 frigates within the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN). Type 054, NATO codename Jiangkai, are 3,400-ton class ships featuring stealthy design with reduced radar cross section and infrared signature for enhanced survivability. In addition, these ships are suitable for offshore and oceanic/blue water operations. Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard and Guangzhou Huangpu Shipyard are responsible for the construction of the Type 054 frigates. The lead ship, FFG 525 Ma'anshan, was commissioned by PLAN in 2005.

The 5,000-ton class Type 054B or Jiangkai-III multi-purpose frigates are a further derivate of the Type 54 class vessels with enhanced anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities and an all-electric propulsion system developing 20 MW. China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) is responsible for the construction of the lead ship. The larger Type 054B frigates integrates both flight deck and hangar for a single Z-9C or Ka-28 ASW helicopter. Her vertical launch system (VLS) will accept HHQ-16C/D surface-to-air missiles, CY-3 anti-submarine missiles and YJ-85 supersonic long-range land attack/anti-ship missiles. Due to its larger hull the Type 054B may be fitted with more than 32 VLS cells. The ship will be fitted with an eight-cell FL-3000N close range air defense system similar to the US Navy's RAM anti-missile system. The weapon system also includes a 76mm PJ26 dual purpose gun, Type 81 anti-submarine rocket launcher and two triple 324mm torpedo tubes. The Type 054B existence was revealed in 2013 with the lead ship to be commissioned by the PLAN in 2016 or 2017.

Type 054B Specifications
Number of Aircraft: 1
Torpedo Tubes: 6
Dimensions
Beam: 16 meter (52 foot)
Length: 140 meter (459 foot)
Main Gun Caliber: 76 millimeter
Power
Total Combined Power: 20 MW (26,810 hp)
Weight
Full Displacement: 5,000 ton

View attachment 62376

Type 054B Ship Listing

SerialNameStatusLaunch DateCommissionDecommission
551
2.png
8 Jun 20162018-
#2
2.png
-2019-
Anything from Deagel should not be considered reliable
 
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