054/A FFG Thread II

[joshuatree]

It is waste time and money to produce 1000-1500 tonnes frigates. The 054 is a good ship overall. Although 054 is a good replacement for the old 051 class destroyers, it will be too slow and too small for carriers' escort. Jiangwei class frigates are not able to do anything away from China. It is a good candidate for coastal guards' ship if refitted for those proposed 056's. China needs to design a downsized 052C, about 5000 tonnes, with turbofan and diesel engined frigate to replace Jianghu class ships. China needs to stop building 052C Destroyers after current run. An all turbofan engined destroyer, about 9000 tonnes, should be the ultimate replacement for the 051's.

I don't think the 056 if a reality will be for the coast guard. There's already a slew of new Haijian cutters coming online for the civilian/paramilitary outfits. With new found wealth, I doubt China will be willing to just refurb old hulls for re-use. Call it a matter of pride, not to mention having hulls with new stealth features.

It sounds like the 056 may be used to fulfill a littoral combat ship role? They would be useful in 1st island chain areas. Maybe something like the Braunschweig class corvette, with UAV helicopters? Perhaps they can serve as a lead ship or command ship for an 022 wolf pack?

 

[tphuang]

It is waste time and money to produce 1000-1500 tonnes frigates. The 054 is a good ship overall. Although 054 is a good replacement for the old 051 class destroyers, it will be too slow and too small for carriers' escort. Jiangwei class frigates are not able to do anything away from China. It is a good candidate for coastal guards' ship if refitted for those proposed 056's. China needs to design a downsized 052C, about 5000 tonnes, with turbofan and diesel engined frigate to replace Jianghu class ships. China needs to stop building 052C Destroyers after current run. An all turbofan engined destroyer, about 9000 tonnes, should be the ultimate replacement for the 051's.

It would be good if they can go with an all gas turbine destroyer, but for numerous reasons, they have not had the resources to do that. The fuel economy for CODOG at low speed is much better than COGAG. And more importantly, they are waiting for the gas turbine technology to mature before they can build a new class of destroyers.

As for 054 class been too slow, that's only partially true. They have clearly been repeatedly deployed to Aden in the past couple of years, so they are capable of missions all over the world. PLAN could send a fleet centered around a carrier or around a LPH or around a LPD depending on the mission. 054A would clearly have no problem been part of the fleet for the latter 2. China's first carrier is not going to be as fast as an US one, so 054's current top speed of 27 knots should be enough for most cases.

As for 1000 to 1500 ton being a waste of money, you are missing the fact that there is a glaring gap between 022 and 054A. This time of ship would be very good in patrolling China's seas within the first chain. And I think they would be very useful in ASW missions in possible conflicts (you should know what I'm referring to here).

 

[A.Man]

It would be good if they can go with an all gas turbine destroyer, but for numerous reasons, they have not had the resources to do that. The fuel economy for CODOG at low speed is much better than COGAG. And more importantly, they are waiting for the gas turbine technology to mature before they can build a new class of destroyers.

The QC280 is working fine. The Chinese is over conservative and reluctant to put it in use. I could never understand why china always goes for under power rather than overpower of everything. That is why I prefer a M3 than Nissan Sentra. I would have money problem (actually I do have money problem for cars) to buy all BMW's. By the way, to certain extent, M3 is just an overdressed Nissan Sentra or Honda Civic. My point is that if China's carriers are not going to have nuclear powers, 054 is fine. If those bad boys are going to run 30 + nautical miles per hour, 054's & 052C's are too slow and too small.

China has all the world money in cash. China could just place an annual order of 100 GE LM2500 turbine engines for a 5 year contract. Would US refuse to sell? Then don't blame China for the trade deficit.

 

[sealordlawrence]

The use of gas turbine technology versus diesel engines is really not a technological difference, both have their advantages and disadvantages. In fact it is increasingly common to see CODOG rather than pure gas turbine. A real technological breakthrough would be if China started electrifying its naval propulsion plants as the UK and US have.

 

[tphuang]

The QC280 is working fine. The Chinese is over conservative and reluctant to put it in use. I could never understand why china always goes for under power rather than overpower of everything. That is why I prefer a M3 than Nissan Sentra. I would have money problem (actually I do have money problem for cars) to buy all BMW's. By the way, to certain extent, M3 is just an overdressed Nissan Sentra or Honda Civic. My point is that if China's carriers are not going to have nuclear powers, 054 is fine. If those bad boys are going to run 30 + nautical miles per hour, 054's & 052C's are too slow and too small.

China has all the world money in cash. China could just place an annual order of 100 GE LM2500 turbine engines for a 5 year contract. Would US refuse to sell? Then don't blame China for the trade deficit.

you probably noticed that their first carrier is going to be Varyag, so that should tell you it's not going to be nuclear. 052C and 054A should be fairly capable escort for that.

as for being conservative, it's a matter based on pragmatism than anything else. I don't think they want to go with COGAG due to fuel economy issues and also production issues with QC-280. Remember, their domestic propulsion production is still weak even after years of licensed assembly.

The use of gas turbine technology versus diesel engines is really not a technological difference, both have their advantages and disadvantages. In fact it is increasingly common to see CODOG rather than pure gas turbine. A real technological breakthrough would be if China started electrifying its naval propulsion plants as the UK and US have.

I think that's still years away for PLAN surface ships.


On a separate note, we finally got photos of towed array sonar on 054A. We've been speculating that it has TAS for a while now due to the hole that we see at the back, but this is the first photographic proof that it is there.

 

[EDIATH]

The use of gas turbine technology versus diesel engines is really not a technological difference, both have their advantages and disadvantages. In fact it is increasingly common to see CODOG rather than pure gas turbine. A real technological breakthrough would be if China started electrifying its naval propulsion plants as the UK and US have.

On the other hand, a diesel engine is big & noisy, not the perfect candidate for a ship assigned primarily with ASW missions. CODOG on medium-sized PLAN surface combatants is more likely a temporary solution, they will inevitably go for COGAG when time's right.

 

[sealordlawrence]

»Ø¸´: Re: 054 Series Frigate Thread 2

On the other hand, a diesel engine is big & noisy, not the perfect candidate for a ship assigned primarily with ASW missions. CODOG on medium-sized PLAN surface combatants is more likely a temporary solution, they will inevitably go for COGAG when time's right.

Actually modern diesels are extremely power dense and the noise of any engine is largely defined by the manner of its mounting. Raft mounted diesel engines are incredibly effective for instance. The use of diesel engines is a fairly standard practice in western navies with only the USN being the exception to the rule with the Arleigh Burke class.

 

[EDIATH]

Re: »Ø¸´: Re: 054 Series Frigate Thread 2

Actually modern diesels are extremely power dense and the noise of any engine is largely defined by the manner of its mounting. Raft mounted diesel engines are incredibly effective for instance. The use of diesel engines is a fairly standard practice in western navies with only the USN being the exception to the rule with the Arleigh Burke class.

Thanks for the insight, however, high energy density does not necessarily lead to equal degree of power-to-weight ratio, as the bulk of an engine are built for the energy transformation process, in which case, a high power brayton engine is more likely to be more compact than a reciprocating one such as diesel.

As to the noise level, mounting method certainly plays an important factor. Yet the noise produced by diesel engines concentrates on the low frequency (by combustion), whereas gas turbine engines mainly produce higher frequency sound waves (by air flow). As ASW sonar systems onboard mainly work on low frequency, the noise from diesel engines will be a substantial disruptor here.

 

[sealordlawrence]

»Ø¸´: Re: »Ø¸´: Re: 054 Series Frigate Thread 2

Thanks for the insight, however, high energy density does not necessarily lead to equal degree of power-to-weight ratio, as the bulk of an engine are built for the energy transformation process, in which case, a high power brayton engine is more likely to be more compact than a reciprocating one such as diesel.

As to the noise level, mounting method certainly plays an important factor. Yet the noise produced by diesel engines concentrates on the low frequency (by combustion), whereas gas turbine engines mainly produce higher frequency sound waves (by air flow). As ASW sonar systems onboard mainly work on low frequency, the noise from diesel engines will be a substantial disruptor here.

More likely, but not necessarily, the other issue with a pure gas turbine plant is that it is less fuel efficient than a combined plant meaning that you offset any gain in space from the engine by the need to carry more fuel for a given requirement.

Diesel engines do not make little difference to ASW operations. Most ASW operations are undertaken at relatively low speed where the vast majority of modern European origin ships are running on their diesels. They are however insulated and mounted in a manner that greatly reduces the noise they radiate into the water. Of greater concern is the noise generated by the propeller and western navies have worked tirelessly to reduce this.

 

[sealordlawrence]

»Ø¸´: Re: 054 Series Frigate Thread 2

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