054/A FFG Thread II

[Pointblank]

The FREMM's will be more advanced, and the current RN Type 23 frigates are probably the most advanced ASW frigates in the world. I would argue any of the several derivatives of the Spanish Type 100 frigate, but particularly Norway's Fridthof Nansen class, are among the most advanced frigates out there. Lets not ignore the similarly excellent Sachsen class of the German Navy.

I would also like to add the Canadian Halifax class frigates; it is perhaps one of the most capable ASW platforms, combining excellent sensors and endurance. The USN loves to have our frigates attached to their carrier battle groups for these very reasons (that and our higher proficiency at ASW).

 

[tphuang]

The FREMM's will be more advanced, and the current RN Type 23 frigates are probably the most advanced ASW frigates in the world. I would argue any of the several derivatives of the Spanish Type 100 frigate, but particularly Norway's Fridthof Nansen class, are among the most advanced frigates out there. Lets not ignore the similarly excellent Sachsen class of the German Navy.

most of what you mentioned are too large imo to be considered. Like I was thinking in the 3000 to 5000 ton classes. Nansen is borderline, I think also a little too large. They really serve as more like destroyers in their respective nations. I mean, FREMM is pretty much going to be like a cheaper, more widely produced version of Horizon class.

The Singaporean Formidable class frigates for one, the Saudi Al Riyadh class frigates for another, the Australian Anzac class frigates, etc. All fairly equivalent in terms of size and function (general purpose multi-mission frigate).

all those mentioned above are comparable to 054A in what they have and do. You can go through each of them and state what the advantage or disadvantage over each other are. And I've had so many arguments with others on 054A vs Formidable. Let's just say 054A and the La Fayette variants with improved air defense are pretty comparable. None, you can really truly say is just that clearly better than others.

I would also like to add the Canadian Halifax class frigates; it is perhaps one of the most capable ASW platforms, combining excellent sensors and endurance. The USN loves to have our frigates attached to their carrier battle groups for these very reasons (that and our higher proficiency at ASW).

That's more an attribute to Canadian training rather than the platform itself.

 

[Pointblank]

all those mentioned above are comparable to 054A in what they have and do. You can go through each of them and state what the advantage or disadvantage over each other are. And I've had so many arguments with others on 054A vs Formidable. Let's just say 054A and the La Fayette variants with improved air defense are pretty comparable. None, you can really truly say is just that clearly better than others.

The Singaporean Formidable has a more advanced SAM and radar combination; The Thales Herakles radar on the Formidable is a phased array radar, and is a multifunction S-band radar. It has a longer range, has less moving parts and is more modern than the Fregat-MAE-5, which was originally designed during the Cold War. The Herakles radar combines two radars into one; a search and track radar and a fire control radar. On the Type 54A, this is achieved using three radars; the Fregat-MAE-5 as a search and track radar, the MR90 Top Dome system as the SAM fire control radar, and the Mineral-ME as the anti-ship missile fire control radar.

The SAM system on the La Fayette derivatives is also more modern and capable; the MBDA Aster is a terminal actively guided radar homing missile which entered service in 2001. The SA-N-12 was originally deployed in 1979, and is a semi-active radar homing missile. Aster has more range and better manoeuvrability compared to the SA-N-12 and its Chinese equivalent.

With the Australian Anzac's, to make things quicker, the Anzac's will fitted with a IRST, and will also receive a phased radar array as well, on top of the current radar systems. ESSM is also being fitted, which has a longer range and better agility compared to the SA-N-12 and its Chinese equivalent.

That's more an attribute to Canadian training rather than the platform itself.

Part of it is training, part of it is the package; the CANTASS sonar system is perhaps one of the world's most capable sonar system. Although the array itself is the American AN/SQR-19, we've upgraded the back end with a Canadian signal processing system that is more powerful. Also, the Halifax class frigates are capable of launching and recovering helicopters up to sea state 6; flight operations on most other ships would have been already cancelled or severely restricted due to the very heavy swells.

 

[tphuang]

The Singaporean Formidable has a more advanced SAM and radar combination; The Thales Herakles radar on the Formidable is a phased array radar, and is a multifunction S-band radar. It has a longer range, has less moving parts and is more modern than the Fregat-MAE-5, which was originally designed during the Cold War. The Herakles radar combines two radars into one; a search and track radar and a fire control radar. On the Type 54A, this is achieved using three radars; the Fregat-MAE-5 as a search and track radar, the MR90 Top Dome system as the SAM fire control radar, and the Mineral-ME as the anti-ship missile fire control radar.

The SAM system on the La Fayette derivatives is also more modern and capable; the MBDA Aster is a terminal actively guided radar homing missile which entered service in 2001. The SA-N-12 was originally deployed in 1979, and is a semi-active radar homing missile. Aster has more range and better manoeuvrability compared to the SA-N-12 and its Chinese equivalent.

btw, that was my peace offering of not getting into it. Is it really your goal of spending the next 2 weeks debating here which one is better, because I could do that with you. Do a search online, I've done plenty of that.

With the Australian Anzac's, to make things quicker, the Anzac's will fitted with a IRST, and will also receive a phased radar array as well, on top of the current radar systems. ESSM is also being fitted, which has a longer range and better agility compared to the SA-N-12 and its Chinese equivalent.

so, you've been dissing HH-16 without knowing anything about it. Let's just give you one instance where it's better. The firing rate of HH-16 in VLS is 1 per second. The firing rate of VLS version of 9M317 is 1 every 2 to 3 seconds and for 2 non-VLS launcher version is 1 every 6 to 7 seconds.

oh yeah, about your amazing upgrades, 054A has IRST + 2 EO Trackers.

Part of it is training, part of it is the package; the CANTASS sonar system is perhaps one of the world's most capable sonar system. Although the array itself is the American AN/SQR-19, we've upgraded the back end with a Canadian signal processing system that is more powerful. Also, the Halifax class frigates are capable of launching and recovering helicopters up to sea state 6; flight operations on most other ships would have been already cancelled or severely restricted due to the very heavy swells.

so you've just stated that it's a good ASW ship, which is true. That doesn't make it better than 054A?

 

[Wolverine]

The F100 class frigates have like a displacement of over 6000 tonnes. I seriously wonder if they can still be called frigates, small destroyers would be a better name I think.
That should go for most of the new European anti air frigates with advanced radar's as well, like the Fridtjof Nansen class, Horizon, and the under development German F125.

So in that case, I think we should ignore these new European "frigates". Besides, Tphuang specifically stated:
"Can you name them and I'm not talking about those 5000+ ton European AAW "Frigates", but real frigates."

Totally agree. Some of those "frigates" are in name only, like Japan's helicopter carrier being called a "destroyer".

 

[HKSDU]

With the Australian Anzac's, to make things quicker, the Anzac's will fitted with a IRST, and will also receive a phased radar array as well, on top of the current radar systems. ESSM is also being fitted, which has a longer range and better agility compared to the SA-N-12 and its Chinese equivalent.

Australia "will" be also recieve these upgrades, keyword "will" China 054A wont be sitting still on the same equipment package via the time Australia recieves these upgrades. When you say "will" you can say "A" is more advanced then "B" when "A" recieves these upgrades. This "will" could be 10 years down the track. Your comparing something in the future with something present. We could say in 1900 China naval forces are more advanced, cause the will recieve 054, 052, 051, 071 over American naval forces.

 

[Ambivalent]

No low frequency bow sonar or stand of ASW weapons on the 054A. The FREMM's will have an ASROC like weapon built off Otomat to deliver a torpedo out to the first convergence zone, and this weapon will allow the missile to be guided to a new target in flight. The 054A's only have short range light torpedos and simple ASW rockets that are perfectly useless against modern deep diving submarines. Any submarine torpedo outranges the lighter weight torps carried by surface ships.
The real strength or weakness of the 054A is it's battle management system, of which we know nothing regarding it's performance.

 

[tphuang]

No low frequency bow sonar or stand of ASW weapons on the 054A. The FREMM's will have an ASROC like weapon built off Otomat to deliver a torpedo out to the first convergence zone, and this weapon will allow the missile to be guided to a new target in flight. The 054A's only have short range light torpedos and simple ASW rockets that are perfectly useless against modern deep diving submarines. Any submarine torpedo outranges the lighter weight torps carried by surface ships.
The real strength or weakness of the 054A is it's battle management system, of which we know nothing regarding it's performance.

actually, we know that 054A does have bow sonar and does have TAS. And we've had interviews stating that it can fire stand of ASROC like missile, but we've never actually seen it in picture (so at this moment, we can only say that it's a possibility, not a certainty). And of course, there is also the idea of what is 054A's role in PLAN. It's certainly not there to hunt submarines. That roles is left for helicopters and submarines. So, just by having possibly the most advanced sonar in service with PLAN, it provides additional data to the platforms that carry the more deadly torpedoes.

 

[Ambivalent]

actually, we know that 054A does have bow sonar and does have TAS. And we've had interviews stating that it can fire stand of ASROC like missile, but we've never actually seen it in picture (so at this moment, we can only say that it's a possibility, not a certainty). And of course, there is also the idea of what is 054A's role in PLAN. It's certainly not there to hunt submarines. That roles is left for helicopters and submarines. So, just by having possibly the most advanced sonar in service with PLAN, it provides additional data to the platforms that carry the more deadly torpedoes.

What info do you have on a Chinese stand off ASW weapon? Is it based on 3M54?

 

[Troika]

THis thread, around page 5 or 6. Interview with a couple of naval brass. Mentioned 'rocket-propelled torpedoes' in context of ASW, also mentioned TAS. Called 045 a ASW ship. Interview in Chinese. No details beyond a few throw-away lines.