054/A FFG Thread II

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
¦^ÂÃ: Re: 054 Series Frigate Thread 2

I don't think China should spendt money to designing and building a Type 054B frigate. Instead China should focus on building more and improving the Type 052C destroyers. I always consider the Type 054A as a second line to the Type 052C.
Having said that i think it would be good for the PLAN to order another badge of 8 type 054A's with improved capabilities in terms of weapons, sensors and radar that is now available to the Chinese arms industry but not a redesigned ship. The reason is that there are still 11 Type 051 Luda class destroyers and 21 Type 053 Jianghu class frigates floating in the PLAN. And these ships need urgent replacement since these ships are no more than cannon fodder in a war situation and the PLAN needs to replace them as soon as they can. The Type 054A has proven to be a easy to produce and cost effective ship that is capable of fulfilling a blue water role. Lets hope that all the Type 051's and Type 053's can be retired by 2020 and the Chengdu J-7's in the PLAAF as well. I believe the future of the PLAN lies with the Type 052C and it's improved variants (Type 052D?).
For surface combatants and task force escort duties, that future must include the Type 054A FFG and it's improved variants along with the Type 052C DDG and it's variants.

The two compliment each other and are both necessary to maximixs flexability and mission capabilities.

FFGs can go places that DDGs will not go, either because you do not want to risk them or because of the mission profile, or even political concerns. The PLAN has a fine set in these two and needs to continue both, ultimately complimrnting toes with the Type 056 OPV. Not to mention the pe 093 and 095 SSNs.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: ¦^ÂÃ: Re: 054 Series Frigate Thread 2

i agree with Jeff, frigates are needed and many countrys are making them even although they have destroyers

for China and its sourounding island chains frigates would be very useful, and theres no reason to believe why China wouldnt make a Type 054B, afterall that has been the way PLAN has been working for a while now

we always thought that 24 Type 054As would be built, but now it seems like 16 Type 054As + 8 Type 054Bs will be doing that job, and i think we may be close to see a Type 054B soon so our predictions and guesses will soon be proven

same for Type 052C, we first seen 2 then 4 now 6 being built, and it was originally thought that we may see 8 Type 052Cs and 8 Type 052Ds which is now what is expected

by 2020 China will field a formidable surface combatant force of 24 Type 054A/B and 16 Type 052C/D Pennants ( 170-174, 117-120, 150-153, 154-157)

after that we will see the shift to Type 058 cruisers and faster Type 059 frigates but that is post -2020 and i would not want to predict that far ahead just seems unpractical
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: ¦^ÂÃ: Re: 054 Series Frigate Thread 2

For surface combatants and task force escort duties, that future must include the Type 054A FFG and it's improved variants along with the Type 052C DDG and it's variants.

The two compliment each other and are both necessary to maximixs flexability and mission capabilities.

FFGs can go places that DDGs will not go, either because you do not want to risk them or because of the mission profile, or even political concerns. The PLAN has a fine set in these two and needs to continue both, ultimately complimrnting toes with the Type 056 OPV. Not to mention the pe 093 and 095 SSNs.

He is saying Lines between Frigates and Destroyer in a traditional sense has been blurred for a long time.
RN has Type 22 Frigates which the heaviest has displacement that is above 5000 tons while its contemporary DDG Type 42 weighs in little bellow that. both use the same 2x2 Olympus+Tyne COGAG/COGOG plant

Similar thing for FREMM/FREDA frigate. its displaces above what Type 052C would be. and france has opted to have limited number of Horizon to 2 slots, but instead fill in its air defense capability with FREDA.

For cost purposes you might be able to save some money vs the capability if one ship type is brought instead of two.

so yeah why not a 6000 tons class general purpose hull. CODAG.
and with 2 types of sub-class. 1 for Anti-air/Land-Attack/Anti-shipping, essentially pack full of VLS slots for Naval Sams and Cruiser missiles. and an very good radar. and justa flight deck but no hangar.

and another ASW/General Purpose version also on the same hull but instead of radar and extra VLS traded those away for a biger flight deck and big hangar for at least 2 helos, towed arrays and more for patrol duties.


jsut a thought.

p.s.
I always thought a 6000 ton hull would be ideal. because once you get into 8000-10000 ton that's pretty much the upper limit for cruise diesels in a CODA/OG and you need a COGAG plant. and it is still big enough for sea worthiness.
all one need to do is have each hull specialize in a role. which anti-air/landattack/anti-ship would naturally group into one spcialist because that would call maximum VLS slots for fire power concentration.

and General Purpose/ASW/Patrol would be naturally group into another beause those function would call for maximize helicopter carrying capabilities.
 
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joshuatree

Captain
I generally agree with your line of thinking, and Type 054 may as things now stand in fact stop after Hull 18 (575). On the other hand, what will Hudong and Huangpu do when not building 054A's? In the 2035 forecast, the first Type 059 was in service in 2023, so there would be a gap of about 8 years.

Maybe HD and HP will help accelerate the number of 056s (and maybe variants, ie 056A) during that gap?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: ¦^ÂÃ: Re: 054 Series Frigate Thread 2

For surface combatants and task force escort duties, that future must include the Type 054A FFG and it's improved variants along with the Type 052C DDG and it's variants.

The two compliment each other and are both necessary to maximixs flexability and mission capabilities.

FFGs can go places that DDGs will not go, either because you do not want to risk them or because of the mission profile, or even political concerns. The PLAN has a fine set in these two and needs to continue both, ultimately complimrnting toes with the Type 056 OPV. Not to mention the pe 093 and 095 SSNs.

The point about ffg's going where ddgs can't go is a good point.

But I feel like the 054 hull will not be able to go beyond 054A anymore without significant structural changes. For a follow on frigate to 054A, a clean sheet design may be wise.

I would argue for a clean sheet design for the DDG realm as well, but seeing at the changes made between 052B and 052C, some relatively minor modifications could keep a future 052D relevant for years to come especially if there's not a need for massive missile loads, with that role to be taken by CG 058 instead.
 

franco-russe

Senior Member
Maybe HD and HP will help accelerate the number of 056s (and maybe variants, ie 056A) during that gap?

I know this is a lonely position, but I do not think that we will at this point see more than four 056's (two each from Huangpu and Hudong) for the Hong Kong Squadron.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I can only speak for myself, when I say that I expected a 054B to look something like this, although without the back SMART-L esque radar and the same smoke stack as 054/A
054b6.jpg


I saw 054B as a ship with the same number of VLS cells as 054A, but the new "common" one instead, and changing up the mast to accommodate a scaled down version of 052C's SAPARS. Such an upgrade will not have been quite out of the question imo, but I feel like PLAN are realizing the 054 hull will not be big enough (or fast enough?) to keep up with future blue water fleets (CVBGs), and may not bother with a 4000+ ton frigate for their next generation, but rather a larger, 5000-6000 ton frigate like some of the euro "frigates" instead. If you're in the position to either spend money developing a variant from an existing hull with limited potential, or go to a clean sheet design ("059") which will come a little later and continue buying a few more of the reliable and currently quite capable 054A as stop gaps, the wiser decision imo would be the latter.

Although of course you are right, the later hulls of 054A will and should be visibly different inside, compared to earlier hulls.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't making myself very clear the first time round. What I was trying to ask was not precisely what everyone thinks the 054B will look like/feature, as you have given a very good description of the most popular expectation. What I was trying to ask was on what bases are people using to come up with the above expectations for what an 054B will be like?

To me, it just looks like someone took the new radar being tested on the test ship, and then added a UK Type45 style integrated sensor mast and added 'new universal VLS'.

I am just questioning how reasonable/realistic that expectation is, and suggesting that the 054B may not necessarily be such a radical modification on the 054A. In fact, if the main differences were internal, with new battle management, sonar and new universal VLS (I do not understand how people can expect to be able to tell if the VLS is the same by just looking at the covers. If you just looked at a medium resolution picture of the VLS cells of the 054A and a US MK41, would you really be able to tell which was which?), it would be very hard for us to differentiate between an 054A and 054B.

Personally, I think the modifications you suggested are too radical to be able to be easily integrated onto the 054A hull. It's like aircraft design, at some point, it is just easier to start with a clean slate instead of trying to re-make an existing design into something else.

The 054A is an extremely successful design, and fit's the PLAN's requirements very well. Remember that despite all the investment and new toys, China only spends about $89.8bn on defense, and does not spend that much more than far smaller countries like the UK ($62.7bn), France ($58.8bn) or Japan ($58.4bn). Compared to them, China has far more territory to protect, and still has a vast number of antiquated tanks, fighters and ships that needs replacing. That is where the current priority lies. The UK Type45 might be cool, but look at the eye watering price tag and the tiny number the RN is buying. China could never made do with so few ships.

The 054A might not be as good as a Type45, but then, it doesn't need to be. It is an excellent general purpose frigate, and comes at an amazingly good price. That is why the PLAN will buy a lot of them.

However, as you mentioned the 054A does have a few shortcomings, but they are not something a new VLS or sensors will be able to fix. The cruise speed and endurance are dependent on the hull, and so long as you use the same hull, you will be having the same issues.

If that is indeed the case, then the only realistic solution would be to move onto a new hull design, that was designed specifically to meet the speed and endurance requirements of a carrier escort. This is just me, but it would make far more sense to save the new fency sensor masts and what not for this new escort FFG (which we will call the 059 class for lack of a better term), and you could afford to spend a bit more per hull as you will not need that many of them, and since they will be protecting your carriers, it pays to go all out and get the best.

The 054As could take out the bulk of the other duties leaving the new 059s to focus on escorting the PLAN's new carriers. That makes far more sense to me than Burkes undertaking escort duty for supply ships as is the case with the USN these days.

When you don't have a ridiculous defense budget, it pays to be as efficient as possible.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I see what you mean now. However the changes I suggested (and which some people believed 054B would feature) are not that radical, if we look at how 054A progressed from 054. Along with the expected overhaul of sonar, internal electronics, the two big changes would be having an equal number cell of the new universal VLS (which could end up having near identical dimensions to the current HQ-16 VLS), and the replacement of sea eagle radar with a miniature SAPARS from 052C (the illustration goes beyond what I thought 054B would look like, what with the SMART-L like radar and 052C/burke style placement of ciws some points I would disagree with)

As for the original question wrt basis, I think people were just using 054B as a term for "next generation frigate". And surely there must be a precedent for justifying a new flight or block of an existing ship. I see the change from flights or letter prefixes usually resulting from major physical changes (052B to 052C, 054 to 054A, burke flight i to flight iia). Newer 054As may well have refined or even overhauled electronics and internals compared to early models; I would add an "+" to the end of it, instead.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
First, I don't think we know what the speed of the 054A is or that it somehow can't keep up with the ex-Varyag. Second the budget of the Chinese military is not $90 billion. I think we all do know that. That said, I would hope that a "054B" would include a second hangar for another helo in order to expand its ASW capabilities, in addition to upgraded sensors such as a more effective medium frequency sonar and an X-band or C-band rotating 2-panel AESA like the Sampson, or possibly even a fixed 4-panel AESA like the APAR. This upgrade would remove 4 Orekh-type radars, 1 gun control radar, and 1 surface search radar (forgot the name) from the ship. I think the basic 054 hull design is adequate to handle this kind of upgrade, though for a 2nd hangar the back end would probably have to be extended several meters towards the rear so that the two side-by-side hangars would not intrude into the space currently taken up by the dinghy facilities. I envision the control room and the window facing the landing pad to be sandwiched in between the hangars, similar to the current arrangement on the USN's OHP frigates. As for the CIWS, if the PLAN considers the FL-3000N to be an upgrade to the gun CIWS, I would expect that they would just replace the gun one for one in the exact same locations on the ship rather than lengthening the ship for the sole purpose of placing the CIWS in a midline position like in the fan art drawing.
 
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