054/A FFG Thread II

[plawolf]

There is a lot of talk about 054Bs, but just what does people really expect the 054B to look like? For the Burke, a lot of the changes between some of the Flights was mainly internal, and a similar thing will probably happen with the 054A.

Just because there are no major external differences does not necessarily mean that 054A hull 18 will still be exactly the same as 054A hull 1.

The fanboy in us all would love to see cool new features added like integrated sensor mast, more VLS cells etc, but deep down, we probably all know that the jump from 054 to 054A is probably as big as an external change as we are likely to see on a single ship class. The newer 054As will probably have all sorts of refinements, and new equipment, the most visible will probably be something like the new weapons and equipment being tested, like the new 10 barrel CIWS and FL3000s etc. But would we consider ships with such refinements to still be 054As or 054Bs?

 

[antiterror13]

Pakistan and China are close friend, the more advanced PLAN, PN would get advanced ship in line with PLAN, perhaps not the top notch ones, roughly 1/2 generation behind, but it would be more than enough to counter IN. I know PAF is well known for professionalism and skilled & brave pilots, how about PN and the sailors ?

PLAAF gets excellent benefits/inputs/feedback from PAF in developing JF-17 and in some extent J-10 as well. Not sure about PLAN, anybody to share ?

 

[Blitzo]

I generally agree with your line of thinking, and Type 054 may as things now stand in fact stop after Hull 18 (575). On the other hand, what will Hudong and Huangpu do when not building 054A's? In the 2035 forecast, the first Type 059 was in service in 2023, so there would be a gap of about 8 years.

Either there are more 054As to come after the 18th unit, or there are some other ships HD and HP will be contracted to build while waiting for 059. If we factor in the first 059 would take longer to build as it's the first, say two years are more, frigate production will have stopped between 2015 to around 2020. That's a gap of five years between one generation of ship and another, which is not a lengthy delay by any means. But I suppose how capable of a ship 059 turns out to be.

There is a lot of talk about 054Bs, but just what does people really expect the 054B to look like? For the Burke, a lot of the changes between some of the Flights was mainly internal, and a similar thing will probably happen with the 054A.

Just because there are no major external differences does not necessarily mean that 054A hull 18 will still be exactly the same as 054A hull 1.

The fanboy in us all would love to see cool new features added like integrated sensor mast, more VLS cells etc, but deep down, we probably all know that the jump from 054 to 054A is probably as big as an external change as we are likely to see on a single ship class. The newer 054As will probably have all sorts of refinements, and new equipment, the most visible will probably be something like the new weapons and equipment being tested, like the new 10 barrel CIWS and FL3000s etc. But would we consider ships with such refinements to still be 054As or 054Bs?

I can only speak for myself, when I say that I expected a 054B to look something like this, although without the back SMART-L esque radar and the same smoke stack as 054/A

I saw 054B as a ship with the same number of VLS cells as 054A, but the new "common" one instead, and changing up the mast to accommodate a scaled down version of 052C's SAPARS. Such an upgrade will not have been quite out of the question imo, but I feel like PLAN are realizing the 054 hull will not be big enough (or fast enough?) to keep up with future blue water fleets (CVBGs), and may not bother with a 4000+ ton frigate for their next generation, but rather a larger, 5000-6000 ton frigate like some of the euro "frigates" instead. If you're in the position to either spend money developing a variant from an existing hull with limited potential, or go to a clean sheet design ("059") which will come a little later and continue buying a few more of the reliable and currently quite capable 054A as stop gaps, the wiser decision imo would be the latter.

Although of course you are right, the later hulls of 054A will and should be visibly different inside, compared to earlier hulls.

 

[i.e.]

.

Nice ship in the picture but I would expect them to keep on track with the euro/DCN influence in their next generation of frigates. a pair SEMT Pielstick 16 PA6 STC diesel with a pair of QC-185 gas turbines would make it a nice power pack for a 6000 ton class frigate. which allows enough volume for a 48 VLS pack and some decent radars. this would be the most economical choice as these frigates are to be truly frigates in the age of sails sense. big enough to be on station in Indian and Pacific ocean for months at a time to keep watch but pack enough punch to be able to deal with most threats.

chinese FREMM anyone?

 

[Jeff Head]

¦^ÂÃ: Re: 054 Series Frigate Thread 2

538 and 546's arrival at NSF

Very nice pics of those new vessels.

As the PLAN brings more into service, the pride and experience of these sailors will only increase and be spread throughout the fillet and the service.

 

[Blitzo]

Nice ship in the picture but I would expect them to keep on track with the euro/DCN influence in their next generation of frigates. a pair SEMT Pielstick 16 PA6 STC diesel with a pair of QC-185 gas turbines would make it a nice power pack for a 6000 ton class frigate. which allows enough volume for a 48 VLS pack and some decent radars. this would be the most economical choice as these frigates are to be truly frigates in the age of sails sense. big enough to be on station in Indian and Pacific ocean for months at a time to keep watch but pack enough punch to be able to deal with most threats.

chinese FREMM anyone?

From the 2035 chart, it looks like 059 will displace 5100 tons, but it's unclear if the numbers they provide are for standard or full. In any case it is my expectation as well that 059 or whatever the next generation frigate is to look similar to FREMM and field either a 32 or 48 cells of the new common VLS possibly with a smaller version of either SAPARS or a new radar.

The timing of the new frigate and cruiser makes me wonder if we'll be seeing a new generation of sensors aboard them (or a new generation of everything). The past few years I've held the belief that any 054B would likely field a similar radar to 052C, but by the 2020s the likes of SPY-3 and AMDR are to fielded and I expect PLAN to keep up with such developments.

The post 052D generation of surface combatants the PLAN are expected to build will be very interesting to watch, especially the 10k ton cruiser and how it will look compared to peers like flight three burkes and sejong.

 

[steve_rolfe]

As a general figure how long does it take the Chinese shipyards to construct an 054A Frigate?

............and are all the modules for a ship made at one shipyard.......or are they made at several and then shipped to one shipyard for the final assembly?

Just asking as this seems to be the technique used here in the UK currently.......well for very large vessels anyway!

ps:- I notice from the above list posted that the 052C class will be going upto 10....2 more than the 8 been built or seen to being built now!

---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 PM ----------

From the pictures of PLAN vessels............is it me, or are the pennant numbers of the vessels very large compared to other navies?

 

[hmmwv]

My advise is don't take the chart too seriously, it's not from authoritative sources as it messed up a number of ships' builders. I fully expect an upgraded 054 to come in the next couple of years, whether it's part of the original 24 ship plan (2008 rumor), or an entirely separate order is anybody's guess. Unlike PLAAF, PLAN uses type designation extremely carefully, so unless it's a CODAG or electric pod driven ship it will not carry a new 05X designation. If the 054 hull wasn't such a huge departure from the Jianghu/Jiangwei days PLAN probably would have called it 053H4.

 

[asif iqbal]

Pakistan and China are close friend, the more advanced PLAN, PN would get advanced ship in line with PLAN, perhaps not the top notch ones, roughly 1/2 generation behind, but it would be more than enough to counter IN. I know PAF is well known for professionalism and skilled & brave pilots, how about PN and the sailors ?

PLAAF gets excellent benefits/inputs/feedback from PAF in developing JF-17 and in some extent J-10 as well. Not sure about PLAN, anybody to share ?

the reason why Pakistan get what it gets from China is because its what we requested

JF17 comes with SD10 and PL9C, the same missiles even J10B will use, if Pakistan needed J10 then we would have got it, but simple reason is that is not what Pakistan needs

we dont need Type 054A, F22P meets the criteria what PN needs, again there are many examples like this where Pakistan has got the very best of Chinese equipment but other times we settle for some items which are not the best China can make, China started JF17 to make low cost fighter based on Pakistan requirments so theres no doubt we could have even aircraft like AWACS, and we do its called the ZDK-03

it has been proven in Anatolian Eagle (excersie hosted by Turkey) that no airforce in the world has pilots who can beat Pakistani pilots in WVR close quaters combat

as for the airforce, well it hardly needs a introduction, here is what General Chuck Yeager wrote in his Autobiography


"This airforce(the PAF), is second to none"
"The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a
three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets
and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the
figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and
counted the wrecks below." "They were really good, aggressive
dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was
damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying. "
(General (Retd.) Chuck Yeager (USAF) , Book: Yeager, the
Autobiography).
General Chuck Yeager, famous USAF test pilot, on deputation in
Pakistan as US Defense Representative. The PAF remains the only
foreign air force in the world to have received Chuck Yeager's
admiration - a
recommendation which the PAF is proud of.

and..............

"As an air defence analyst, I am fully aware that the Pakistan Air
Force ranks today as one of the best air forces in the world and that
the PAF Combat Commanders' School (CCS) in Sargodha has been ranked
as the best GCI/pilot and fighter tactics and weapons school in the
world". As one senior US defence analyst commented to me in 1991, "it
leaves Topgun (the US Naval Air Station in Miramar, California) far
behind".
-Sergey Vekhov
May 1993 issue (pages 46-47) of Airforces Monthly, a reputable
UK-based air defence magazine.

list goes on..................

---------- Post added at 09:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 AM ----------

PLAAF gets excellent benefits/inputs/feedback from PAF in developing JF-17 and in some extent J-10 as well. Not sure about PLAN, anybody to share ?

in the process i forgot to actually answer the question lol, simple answer is, No

if anything its PN that needs to learn from China not the other way round

PN is small and doesnt really get the budget that it should, they have plenty of experience and also were the first navy to sink surface ships using submarine after WWII, INS Khukri and INS Kirpan sunk by PNS Hangor in 1971

in the coming years I hope Pakistan can get 2 Type 054 frigates from China and 4 more custom built frigates in the class betweeen Type 054 and Type 054A with a good air defence in addition to 3-4 more improved Yuans

our naval ship are now almost all Chinese and this would make co-operation between the 2 navys very easy since they would be sharing similar platform

also having a oversea navy station for PLAN at the mouth of the Arabian Sea would be benifical, we could do joint patrol from there

I dont think it will be too long before we see Chinese carrier task force with PN ship in the mix doing excersie together

 

[Franklin]

I don't think China should spendt money to designing and building a Type 054B frigate. Instead China should focus on building more and improving the Type 052C destroyers. I always consider the Type 054A as a second line to the Type 052C.
Having said that i think it would be good for the PLAN to order another badge of 8 type 054A's with improved capabilities in terms of weapons, sensors and radar that is now available to the Chinese arms industry but not a redesigned ship. The reason is that there are still 11 Type 051 Luda class destroyers and 21 Type 053 Jianghu class frigates floating in the PLAN. And these ships need urgent replacement since these ships are no more than cannon fodder in a war situation and the PLAN needs to replace them as soon as they can. The Type 054A has proven to be a easy to produce and cost effective ship that is capable of fulfilling a blue water role. Lets hope that all the Type 051's and Type 053's can be retired by 2020 and the Chengdu J-7's in the PLAAF as well. I believe the future of the PLAN lies with the Type 052C and it's improved variants (Type 052D?).