054/A FFG Thread II

[Blitzo]

I dont think that china has any interest in getting cruisers. If they wanted, they would have them by now. The first one could well have been that unfinished slava class ship that ukraine got after the colapse of the SU. China could have bought that together with varyag, but choose not to. Besides, china has already built military ships far bigger than a cruiser. Why would they wait so long to built them if they desired them?

There's quite a difference between a slava class cruiser and a ticonderoga/sejong type cruiser, and I'm quite certain the PLAN would not have wanted, and certainly do not currently want, slava class cruisers especially after buying and operating the white elephants which are the sovermennys. besides they bought varyag from the ukrainians, did ukraine have slavas for sale at all?

Why would they wait so long to build cruisers? Because until the late 2010s and early 2020s the PLAN will never had had any CVs they needed to defend. 052Cs and 054As are good, and 052Ds will be better, but a large central ship carrying loads more missiles with extensive command and control facilities will be necessary, and that means a larger ship, meaning a cruiser.
And PLAN are only recently mastering advanced AAW DDGs in the form of 052C and 052C+. You have to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run.

But i believe that 052D is on the drawing board. Not bigger than 052C, but more advanced. You dont need arleigh burke sized ships to sail the oceans.

052Ds should actually be off the drawing board by now, if anything. we should be due to see them start construction within eight months.
I agree you do not need a full fleet of burke sized ships (USN cough cough) but you certainly should have a few in service if you want to reliably defend your CVBGs. The centers of all USN CVBGs air defense are tico cruisers.
I think cruisers are the ultimate symbol of a blue water navy.
One only starts to acquire cruisers if you already own a fleet of destroyers, frigates, SSNs. amphibious assault craft and carriers and feel its necessary to build massive whopping principle surface combatants to tie up and put a bow on your blue water fleet. Basically, cruisers are usually the last things that should be on a navy's checklist and few apart from the largest navies and countries with great national treasure will even think about producing such vessels. The fact that PLAN may be looking for their own 10k ton whoppers says a lot about the direction they seek to grow in.
Do I think the PLAN are going for cruisers in the near future? Well my post 2016 shipbuilding speculation is equivalent to the chart A man posted, so yes I'm cautiously expecting one. We'll know by 2018.

 

[asif iqbal]

I dont think that china has any interest in getting cruisers. If they wanted, they would have them by now. The first one could well have been that unfinished slava class ship that ukraine got after the colapse of the SU. China could have bought that together with varyag, but choose not to. Besides, china has already built military ships far bigger than a cruiser. Why would they wait so long to built them if they desired them?

But i believe that 052D is on the drawing board. Not bigger than 052C, but more advanced. You dont need arleigh burke sized ships to sail the oceans.

its 2012, not 1960s anymore, anyone can make a big ship but making bigger doesnt automaticaly mean better

the thing is, China has only "re-descovered" its navy so to speak, they started with Type 052 and now are going to make Type 052D, over the decades and years they went from being a backwater navy to a blue water navy, learning and changing as they go

when they do make a cruiser it will be the most advanced cruisers in the world, it will bring together knowlegde and experience from all the recent naval platform, a integrated battle system, buying a unfinished one from another country would not benifit China as they already had in their long programme a good set of models to base it on, Varyag was a carrier and China never operated and built one before thats a different story

i personally believe a cruiser is on the cards, theres no reason to think otherwise, and also Type 052D is not on the drawing board its probably already started construction of its parts, its next in line after the 8th Type 052C

Blitzo our posts just overlapped that is what i was going to say

 

[kroko]

052Ds should actually be off the drawing board by now, if anything. we should be due to see them start construction within eight months.

just 8 months from now? why do you say that? type 052C are still being built...

I remember you saying that china has a hidden carrier under construction to be launched this year. I guess your timetables are too optimistic.

 

[plawolf]

There's quite a difference between a slava class cruiser and a ticonderoga/sejong type cruiser, and I'm quite certain the PLAN would not have wanted, and certainly do not currently want, slava class cruisers especially after buying and operating the white elephants which are the sovermennys. besides they bought varyag from the ukrainians, did ukraine have slavas for sale at all?

Why would they wait so long to build cruisers? Because until the late 2010s and early 2020s the PLAN will never had had any CVs they needed to defend. 052Cs and 054As are good, and 052Ds will be better, but a large central ship carrying loads more missiles with extensive command and control facilities will be necessary, and that means a larger ship, meaning a cruiser.
And PLAN are only recently mastering advanced AAW DDGs in the form of 052C and 052C+. You have to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run.



052Ds should actually be off the drawing board by now, if anything. we should be due to see them start construction within eight months.
I agree you do not need a full fleet of burke sized ships (USN cough cough) but you certainly should have a few in service if you want to reliably defend your CVBGs. The centers of all USN CVBGs air defense are tico cruisers.
I think cruisers are the ultimate symbol of a blue water navy.
One only starts to acquire cruisers if you already own a fleet of destroyers, frigates, SSNs. amphibious assault craft and carriers and feel its necessary to build massive whopping principle surface combatants to tie up and put a bow on your blue water fleet. Basically, cruisers are usually the last things that should be on a navy's checklist and few apart from the largest navies and countries with great national treasure will even think about producing such vessels. The fact that PLAN may be looking for their own 10k ton whoppers says a lot about the direction they seek to grow in.
Do I think the PLAN are going for cruisers in the near future? Well my post 2016 shipbuilding speculation is equivalent to the chart A man posted, so yes I'm cautiously expecting one. We'll know by 2018.

Great points!

Just to add that you made a very good point about needing a central C&C node to anchor a carrier strike group around. I believe that one of the main reasons that the Varyag has those massive PARs is in part because she is acting as the fleet defense command centre in addition to the carrier.

If the PLAN does build a large 10kt+ cruiser class ship, then that could be an indication that the future PLAN indigenous carriers could be more pure carriers like western carriers and less carrier cruisers of Soviet design, whereby the fleet defense C&C role will be taken over by the new cruisers, and the carriers will just worry about launching and recovering aircraft.

The 2016-18 date would also fit in nicely with when we might expect to see the first indigenous Chinese carriers, and I think they will look a lot less the Varyag than most 'analysis's' would expect.

 

[kroko]

Great points!

Just to add that you made a very good point about needing a central C&C node to anchor a carrier strike group around. I believe that one of the main reasons that the Varyag has those massive PARs is in part because she is acting as the fleet defense command centre in addition to the carrier.

If the PLAN does build a large 10kt+ cruiser class ship, then that could be an indication that the future PLAN indigenous carriers could be more pure carriers like western carriers and less carrier cruisers of Soviet design, whereby the fleet defense C&C role will be taken over by the new cruisers, and the carriers will just worry about launching and recovering aircraft.

The 2016-18 date would also fit in nicely with when we might expect to see the first indigenous Chinese carriers, and I think they will look a lot less the Varyag than most 'analysis's' would expect.

I think that main reason that varyag has those PAR´s its because its primarly a research/training vessel, for china to learn how to use/build carriers. Its not supposed to make part of a Cbg. That will happen with the domestic carrier.

Of course china will not adopt carriers cruisers. This concept has been proven wrong. Besides, china doesnt have those massive ASM, nor the desire to research them.

I can agree with the 2016-2018 timetable. But the crucial issue is, will it have catapults? If not, it will be a "glorified" varyag.

 

[plawolf]

I think that main reason that varyag has those PAR´s its because its primarly a research/training vessel, for china to learn how to use/build carriers. Its not supposed to make part of a Cbg. That will happen with the domestic carrier.

Your argument makes no sense. If the PLAN only intended the Varyag to act as a training or carrier testbed, then there would be no reason to put expensive PARs on it.

The Varyag will probably spend the majority of it's live training PLANAF crews and developing carrier tactics and operational procedures, but you are kidding yourself if you think she isn't capable of being the flagship of a powerful carrier strike group if there is a need for it to do so.

Of course china will not adopt carriers cruisers. This concept has been proven wrong. Besides, china doesnt have those massive ASM, nor the desire to research them.

Well the kuznetsov class might have come a long way from the old Kievs, but the influence still remain, with it's massive weapons load and PARs. They might look like your standard flat top, but under the skin, there is still cruise blood in it's bones.

The Chinese have taken the Varyag further from Carrier-cruiser and closer towards pure carrier with the removal of it's Granit launchers and possible extensions to the hanger, but they have kept the PARs and associated CIC provisions. The Varyag might lack the missiles of a cruiser, but it has all the sensors and C&C facilities of one, and that is why it will server as the command nexus of any PLAN CSG.

The new PLAN cruisers will take over that part of the Varyag's role, and allow the future Chinese indigenous carriers to operate in a more traditional western carrier role of remaining silent and focusing on flight operations while something else co-ordinated it's escort fleet.

I can agree with the 2016-2018 timetable. But the crucial issue is, will it have catapults? If not, it will be a "glorified" varyag.

Of course any indigenous carriers coming online in 2016-18 will have catapults. If the Varyag had provisions for catapults in it's design, the Varyag will probably have catapults today.

Steam catapult technology is hardly some mystical dark art, the same technology is used in rollercoaster rides for crying out loud, and the Chinese has had decades to poke about with the cats they got off the Melbourne. If China can put a man in space and build a stealth fighter, I don't think building a steam catapult is going to be beyond them.

Hell, in 2016-18, the question may well be whether it will be steam cats or EMALs.

 

[Mysterre]

The new PLAN cruisers will take over that part of the Varyag's role, and allow the future Chinese indigenous carriers to operate in a more traditional western carrier role of remaining silent and focusing on flight operations while something else co-ordinated it's escort fleet.

This may or may not happen. There is no reason to believe that a carrier would somehow lose focus or concentration while coordinating a fleet and at the same time coordinating an air wing. That's a what a flag bridge and flag staff are for. The Varyag of all ships is especially suited for the extra communications and computing systems needed for a dedicated flagship, having already been built for this purpose from its inception.

 

[Blitzo]

just 8 months from now? why do you say that? type 052C are still being built...

Not really. The current consensus is that the 052D will appear after the last (8th) 052C is launched, which if previous construction is anything to go by, will be around six to eight months.

I remember you saying that china has a hidden carrier under construction to be launched this year. I guess your timetables are too optimistic.

I still do think that they do (hidden construction to a degree), though clearly the chances of it existing this year is getting smaller by the day.

---------- Post added at 08:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 AM ----------

I think that main reason that varyag has those PAR´s its because its primarly a research/training vessel, for china to learn how to use/build carriers. Its not supposed to make part of a Cbg. That will happen with the domestic carrier.

The ford class CVN will be equipped with the SPY-3, the same PAR that the Zumwalt class will be fielding.

The fact that a carrier has PAR has nothing to do with its intended role. Hell, kuznetsov was meant to be equipped with mars passat PARs. Actually it and vikramditya are both equipped with the top plate PAR (varyag has sea eagle). The UKs QE class is going to be equipped with SMARTL. Even the Korean dokdo class has a smart-l and the JMSDF's hyuga class has an indigenous active phased array that looks like a scaled down version of 052C's APARs.

All are equipped with PARs, all are not test vessels. If anything I would hope the indigenous Chinese carriers when they arrive, would also be equipped with either 052C's SAPARS or whatever future PAR will be upon the PLANs principle surface combatants

---------- Post added at 08:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 AM ----------

Well the kuznetsov class might have come a long way from the old Kievs, but the influence still remain, with it's massive weapons load and PARs. They might look like your standard flat top, but under the skin, there is still cruise blood in it's bones.

The Chinese have taken the Varyag further from Carrier-cruiser and closer towards pure carrier with the removal of it's Granit launchers and possible extensions to the hanger, but they have kept the PARs and associated CIC provisions. The Varyag might lack the missiles of a cruiser, but it has all the sensors and C&C facilities of one, and that is why it will server as the command nexus of any PLAN CSG.

The new PLAN cruisers will take over that part of the Varyag's role, and allow the future Chinese indigenous carriers to operate in a more traditional western carrier role of remaining silent and focusing on flight operations while something else co-ordinated it's escort fleet

This is one point I disagree with -- I don't think we can argue that Varyag can serve as a C&C hub in a PLAN taskforce any better or worse than a nimitz or QE in future, and I am quite certain that nimitz class cvns have quite extensive CICs.
For instance, the ford class will be equipped with SPY-3, that doesn't necessarily mean it will feature a massive jump in C&C capability compared to nimitz class carriers, which only feature AN/SPS-48s as its most powerful radar (at least, no bigger a jump than you would expect from natural growth in electronic capability).
Also, with CeC and extensive datalinking I'm not sure you need a great big radar aboard your flattop for it to serve as a command hub -- although clearly it will help.

I actually asked a similar questions about radars and carriers in a different thread, focusing on whether ford CVNs will feature a massive increase in C&C capability from its much more potent radar compared to nimitz. The answer was that CVs will have strict emissions control in a combat scenario anyway, so their radars will probably be turned off.

Basically, my main point is that the presence of a powerful PAR is not necessarily indicative of a ship's C&C capabilities (especially aboard large ships like carriers or LHA/Ds), and that Varyag imho will probably not feature much superior or extensive C&C provisions compared to other carriers. Also, I expect any future indigenous carriers to also feature PARs. That seems to be the trend these days (ford, QE, hyuga, dokdo),

 

[franco-russe]

, did ukraine have slavas for sale at all?

Yes, the fourth SLAVA (Pr. 1164) ADMIRAL LOBOV, launched Nikolayev 11.08.90 (hull officially renamed UKRAINA, but name never put on ship). As I think I already commented, the Russians would be violating the MCTR regime by selling the Bazalt or Vulkan SSM's that are the whole point of the ship.

Much of this cruiser/destroyer and destroyer/frigate discussion is somewhat artificial, because these terms are used so arbitrarily today. The SLAVA class are obviously cruisers in the accepted sense of the word. A TICONDEROGA, however, is only the air defence destroyer version of the SPRUANCE ASW destroyer class. The ZUMWALT class destroyers, on the other hand, are even more of cruisers than the SLAVA class.

 

[Blitzo]

Yes, the fourth SLAVA (Pr. 1164) ADMIRAL LOBOV, launched Nikolayev 11.08.90 (hull officially renamed UKRAINA, but name never put on ship). As I think I already commented, the Russians would be violating the MCTR regime by selling the Bazalt or Vulkan SSM's that are the whole point of the ship.

Much of this cruiser/destroyer and destroyer/frigate discussion is somewhat artificial, because these terms are used so arbitrarily today. The SLAVA class are obviously cruisers in the accepted sense of the word. A TICONDEROGA, however, is only the air defence destroyer version of the SPRUANCE ASW destroyer class. The ZUMWALT class destroyers, on the other hand, are even more of cruisers than the SLAVA class.

I think ticonderogas are cruisers in every sense of the word, along with slava despite being based off a destroyer hull. Zumwalts will be cruisers (weight wise), but will only have 80 VLS cells compared to the 96 of burkes, and ~130 of ticos. The fact that USN is looking to call flight iii burkes cruisers will only going to make the situation more confusing.

For discussions I generally refer to cruisers as 10k ton+ surface combatants, destroyers for 6k ton+, frigates for 4k ton+.