052C/052D Class Destroyers

SquireAU

New Member
Registered Member
Yes, I read on one of the Chinese websites that one of the changes between the D and DL was a large power plant upgrade. As part of that it said 20MW could be allocated to future electric weapons, etc.

I am sure someone here can find it on the Chinese web.
Do we have any good information on the power output of the 4 Diesel generators on the Type 052D and 052DL destroyers?

As far as I am aware we only know that the Type 054A uses 4 x 1MW generators and that PLAN building norms require the ship to be able to run all electrical systems with half the maximum generator output for survivability - hence half the generators are located on either side of the main propulsion and power lines run on either side of the hull along those damage control corridors that exit to the helicopter landing pad.

The Australian Hobart class, which is a bit smaller than the 052D and uses a similar propulsion is stated to generate 8MW in total electrical power; so far my educated guess has been that the 052D is between 8MW (4 x 2MW) and 12MW (4 x 3MW). Diesel gensets that supply 3MW are rather large, so I was assuming it's more likely to be no more than 10MW with some Lithium batteries to help with power spikes (some Chinese sources claim they're being used, and it makes sense given the space constraint due to the small hull).

Do we have anything more definitive? Cheers!
 

by78

General
Yes, I read on one of the Chinese websites that one of the changes between the D and DL was a large power plant upgrade. As part of that it said 20MW could be allocated to future electric weapons, etc.

I am sure someone here can find it on the Chinese web.

Could you provide a link? I don't recall hearing anything about a power generation upgrade for the DL.
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
Do you mean additional 20MW power from normal 052D ?
Not to my recollection. it said there was a large power upgrade, and then it said, there was also 20MW for future stuff. here is a GT article about the upgrade.

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GT article doesn’t mention the 20MW for electrics though, will try to find the original one. The article was published on January 11, so we are looking for a source from probably January of this year.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think there is still potential for refinements in the 052D hull.

We see the latest batch now adding the Type 368 AESA air to surface scanning radar. These radars are meant to scan and track low flying targets like antiship missiles in high angular resolution.

I think we can remote more legacy radars off the hull such as the Type 347G on the CIWS, the Type 344 for the gun and the Type 366 for the OTH and LOS antiship targeting. The first can be replaced by the CIWS radar we first saw on the Fujian, the latter two by a mechanical swivable X-Band single panel AESA based on the four sided one used on the 055. However with only one panel, we cut the cost to 1/4th. We need to mount four CEC panels in the mast and finally the 052D is fully maxed out.

There is always upgrade potential in any warship. There were even plans to upgrade the Missouri class battleships to keep them going.

The issue is that after a certain point, it gets harder and more expensive to implement upgrades.

There is the (in)famous 90/10 rule where 90% of the initial work could be done for 10% of the budget, while the last 10% takes 90% of the budget. To keep pushing the 052 hull for more upgrades and refinements will push it into that last 10% territory. This is why usually designers go back to the drawing board and start a new design instead of keep pushing existing designs.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
There is always upgrade potential in any warship. There were even plans to upgrade the Missouri class battleships to keep them going.

The issue is that after a certain point, it gets harder and more expensive to implement upgrades.

There is the (in)famous 90/10 rule where 90% of the initial work could be done for 10% of the budget, while the last 10% takes 90% of the budget. To keep pushing the 052 hull for more upgrades and refinements will push it into that last 10% territory. This is why usually designers go back to the drawing board and start a new design instead of keep pushing existing designs.

Actually I was thinking that defensive enhancements and combat multipliers can be added on the ship without any modification to the hull. There is still room for electronic improvements.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Actually I was thinking that defensive enhancements and combat multipliers can be added on the ship without any modification to the hull. There is still room for electronic improvements.

Available deckspace is only part of the equation, and probably the smallest part.

During interviews about the development of the 055, it was repeatedly stated that integrating and de-conflicting all the different sensors and electronics was one of the most difficult parts.

This is nothing new, since way back during the Falklands war, the Sheffield was famously lost due to it having switched off its main air search radar so the commander could take a SATCOM call when the exocite attack took place. And that was when ships only had comparatively very few sensors and electronic equipment.

Sure, you can swap out existing systems for newer ones and add new systems, but that could create cross-interference issues. Are those issue’s insurmountable? Of course not, but the more complex the local EM environment, the more difficult it will be to integrate and de-conflict new additional systems. It’s all down to cost vs benefits.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Are the 2 original 052s still in active service? Pennant 112 and 113. Did they ever get MLU or was that only on 168/9?

Available deckspace is only part of the equation, and probably the smallest part.

During interviews about the development of the 055, it was repeatedly stated that integrating and de-conflicting all the different sensors and electronics was one of the most difficult parts.

This is nothing new, since way back during the Falklands war, the Sheffield was famously lost due to it having switched off its main air search radar so the commander could take a SATCOM call when the exocite attack took place. And that was when ships only had comparatively very few sensors and electronic equipment.

Sure, you can swap out existing systems for newer ones and add new systems, but that could create cross-interference issues. Are those issue’s insurmountable? Of course not, but the more complex the local EM environment, the more difficult it will be to integrate and de-conflict new additional systems. It’s all down to cost vs benefits.

The class of destroyer the Sheffield is was hobbled by poor layout decisions. This ship by the way, isn't hobbled by the lack of, it's literally full of it, including a large VHF radar array. Maybe you shouldn't have your VHF search array having the same range band as your then VHF SATCOMs. Incidentally, this ship class was later upgraded to L band search radars, replacing the VHF ones.

We already added the AESA Type 368 to replace the mechanical parabolic Type 364 on top of the mast. This greatly enhances the secondary layer of defense for this ship.

The next is to remove the Type 366 and 344 radars on top of the bridge decks for a single panel X-band AESA set on a swivel. This AESA is based off the four sided X-band AESA the 055 uses in it's integrated mast. But it's only a single panel, so greatly reducing the cost, complexity and power demand. The new AESA will act as fire control for the guns and surface targets within the line of sight, which are the same things the two previous radars does.

Finally the Type 347G mechanical radar on top of the 1130 CIWS is changed to a phase array, much like the Fujian CIWS. I consider this change to be inevitable as the PLAN standardizes to this new version of the CIWS.

All this is just replacing X band with X band, replacing legacy radars with modern AESAs that do the same role, only better, more frequency agile, the sheer speed of electronic beam steering, and much greater sidelobe suppression which reduces equipment interference. Replacing these radars with cathode ray tubes with solid state ones, you also not just reduce interference but also improve on reliability and reduce heat and power consumption.

Less electrical motors, less interference. With phase arrays we also reduce the side lobes that are a problem with mechanical antennas and is also a great cause of interference. By reverting to phase array AESA we potentially can reduce interference and not increase it.

As for modern CEC and datalinks, these are so frequency agile and hopping. Adding them to replace legacy datalinks actually reduces cross interference. Just to give you an idea, a typical mall can have hundreds of wifi units and mobile phones all operating on the same space, yet they do not interfere with each other. Why? How? That's modern telecommunications to you.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
No
The class of destroyer the Sheffield is was hobbled by poor layout decisions. This ship by the way, isn't hobbled by the lack of, it's literally full of it, including a large VHF radar array. Maybe you shouldn't have your VHF search array having the same range band as your then VHF SATCOMs. Incidentally, this ship class was later upgraded to L band search radars, replacing the VHF ones.

We already added the AESA Type 368 to replace the mechanical parabolic Type 364 on top of the mast. This greatly enhances the secondary layer of defense for this ship.

The next is to remove the Type 366 and 344 radars on top of the bridge decks for a single panel X-band AESA set on a swivel. This AESA is based off the four sided X-band AESA the 055 uses in it's integrated mast. But it's only a single panel, so greatly reducing the cost, complexity and power demand. The new AESA will act as fire control for the guns and surface targets within the line of sight, which are the same things the two previous radars does.

Finally the Type 347G mechanical radar on top of the 1130 CIWS is changed to a phase array, much like the Fujian CIWS. I consider this change to be inevitable as the PLAN standardizes to this new version of the CIWS.

All this is just replacing X band with X band, replacing legacy radars with modern AESAs that do the same role, only better, more frequency agile, the sheer speed of electronic beam steering, and much greater sidelobe suppression which reduces equipment interference. Replacing these radars with cathode ray tubes with solid state ones, you also not just reduce interference but also improve on reliability and reduce heat and power consumption.

Less electrical motors, less interference. With phase arrays we also reduce the side lobes that are a problem with mechanical antennas and is also a great cause of interference. By reverting to phase array AESA we potentially can reduce interference and not increase it.

As for modern CEC and datalinks, these are so frequency agile and hopping. Adding them to replace legacy datalinks actually reduces cross interference. Just to give you an idea, a typical mall can have hundreds of wifi units and mobile phones all operating on the same space, yet they do not interfere with each other. Why? How? That's modern telecommunications to you.

Remember that an AESA radar can also act as a CEC datalink and also EW jammer, like with the F-35.

It's a matter of programming the different software modes
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Tbh type 52Ds is already as capable if not more so then any others in its class. Upgrading it should be lower priority then just building more, as they are likely to operate in squadrons having a larger quantity will be more advantageous then individual prowess.

It's all about sidelobe control. A ship can detect another ship passively through its radar emissions even if the detecting ship is not directly shown upon. That's because the detecting ship is detecting the other ship through the sidelob emissions of the other ship's radars. Sometimes this detection is achieved over the horizon via atmospheric ducting, surface wave propagation or sky backscatter. That is why the ship's ESM equipment is so important, as well discipline in the use of radio and radar.

Mechanical radars, especially those using dishes are prone to having more sidelobes than those using phase arrays and electronic beam steering, although the latter isn't completely zero on it. But you want your side lobes to be as weak so it can't be detected under long ranges.

Another problem is that the older radars use vacuum tube type amplifiers, like TWTs, Klystrons, magnetrons, cross field amps, require a state of high power to operate. The high power of their radar emissions makes it easy to stand out in the background making them detectable. The trend in naval radars is to use solid state transmitters to allow for low power, or low probability of intercept transmissions. This can be applied to traditional mechanical radar designs.

In a ship that has combined mechanical radars and AESAs, the AESAs with solid state transmitters and electronic beam steering can have LPI emissions and ultra low sidelob emissions, making the ship undetectable via enemy ESM. That is until it starts to use on of its traditional radar systems. Such is the case of the 052C/D where you have AESA combined with mechanical radar systems. In later batches, we don't know if the later versions of the mechanical radars onboard the ship has shifted to using solid state transmitters since this is impossible to tell from an external physical point of view.

Ideally you want the ship to be completely AESA and whatever is left to be using solid state. With this, you get the idea why the 055 is what it is, and why the ship uses AESA on just about everything except for traditional SATCOMs and the CIWS radar. But even those I expect to be changed to using AESA in future batches such as the CIWS with the AESA like you see on the Fujian that might be the new standard for the PLAN.

A single radar noisy ship can spoil an entire naval formation trying to be as passively stealthy. So ideally you want your fleet to be as passively undetectable as possible. Ideally you want as much AESA with LPI to be used as possible. If that's not attainable for practical reasons, then mechanical radars upgraded with solid state transmitters for LPI. I have the suspicion that the PLAN is already silently upgrading its legacy fleet, such as the 054A to using solid state transmitters. During ship maintenance we have seen 054As having their search radars removed and replaced though the replaced ones are still physically identical to the previous.


No


Remember that an AESA radar can also act as a CEC datalink and also EW jammer, like with the F-35.

It's a matter of programming the different software modes

Yes but I don't think the PLAN uses it that way ship to ship. That's why the 055 has a set of dedicated CEC arrays that also appears on the Liaoning (retrofitted), Shandong, Fujian and the 075s.

The 055 also has a pair of huge arrays on the side of the ship, which have to be dedicated EW arrays. These arrays also appear on the Fujian's island. This is indicative that the PLAN doesn't use its AESAs for EW.

An S-band AESA can't be used to jam a missile using an X-band guidance radar. The wavelengths are so far off its like a couple of ghosts passing each other. To have a successful jamming, the wavelengths must be of the same wavelength, and of the same phase. To know the wavelength and the phase, you need your ESM to read the threat wave, make a copy of it so your jammer can make a duplicate of it. Defensive jammers are primarily meant to operate at threat radar wavelengths, and in the case of ships, those against the active radar seekers of antiship missiles, which primarily works at the X-band.

As for the CEC, I think the PLAN works on the C-band, which is shorter than the S-band. The C-band allows for a higher information density than S-band, which is the same reason why you see S-band on 4G networks but C-band on 5G. That's the reason for using separate arrays for the CEC.
 
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